The Parthenon: A Warrior's Kyklos

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The Parthenon: A Warrior's Kyklos
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 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2017-03-05 20:16:50
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Zillion said: »
how much stp should i aim for on a 480 delay weapon?

A 5-hit requires 49 Store TP for pure, a 4-hit requires 87, a 3-hit would require 148 Store TP. It's usually better to build for a 5-hit with HELP I AM TRAPPED IN 2006 PLEASE SEND A TIME MACHINE Multi-Attack and then let Samurai's Roll bump you into a 4-hit vs ditching all your Multi-Attack in WS and TP to hit a 4-hit and only getting bonus TP from Samurai's roll.
 Ragnarok.Ejiin
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By Ragnarok.Ejiin 2017-03-09 16:27:05
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Getting back into WAR and working on updating the guide. I'd like to go the BLU guide route and offer an absolute perfect tier sets that include perfect Oseem augments and then a HQ tier that's a bit more realistic to obtain. Then baseline sets for people just returning to WAR and want to know where to start. What do you guys think?

For the dream tier set I'm getting this:

ItemSet 349896
QA+3 on Valorous and Odyssean.

Which is about 300 DPS better than anything I could find that was posted recently. Can anyone beat it?

HQ set would be something like this:

ItemSet 349895

As for WS, it's probably agreed that 5/5 Argosy +1 is top tier, with some well augmented Taupe(STR+13-15/DA+3-4) Valorous being a solid alternative/replacement depending on how lucky you get with acc/atk augments.

However, for Mighty Strikes Resolution, assuming accuracy is not a major issue, Valorous with STR10+ and Crit. Damage+3-5 blows Argosy+1 out of the water:

ItemSet 257998
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 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2017-03-09 17:27:44
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All that depends on how much acc you need. Those QA+3 are uselesz if your whiffing hardcore, same with the ws augs. Ukon and Chango builds suffer the most here.
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By Ragnarok.Ejiin 2017-03-09 17:48:44
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We just finished an Aeonic round where we used melee on everything except Botulus/Yakshi and the most accuracy I used in a TP set was 1050. Granted, I was on SAM, but things should be even easier for WAR considering Ragnarok's 60 accuracy.

To break buffs down:

Food: 100
Vorseals: 72-144
Songs: 516 with SV, 281 without.

Highest accuracy required is 1850 for the Mandy and with SV songs I'm only 40 short of that using base accuracy of 1050 without factoring in GEO Torpor/Acc+

Same goes for VD intense Ambu this month. I've been capped accuracy with just none SV'd songs. I've done 40K points worth on WAR with RUN tank (Reso>Reso doesn't SC so can't trigger boss's heal if you do over 40K in 1 action) and have only pulled hate 2 times and got dispelled on adds.

Needless to say, I have not been using high accuracy sets since the update and the BRD buff/monster debuff update was a huge boon to QA sets compared to how niche they were before.
 Asura.Azagarth
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By Asura.Azagarth 2017-03-09 18:05:11
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The acc drop has been a big deal, but I still am weary about a QA set. I can see it being ok with QA3(a must) and 20~ acc, but that just never happens for me. I am only sitting on 2 pieces with QA3 and both rock an amazing 6 acc. Not to mention a set like that wont shine until you can slap it in all 5 slotts really. my Drk QA 14 set i play around with but it doesnt have superior dps for me /shrug , i assume war would be the same.
 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2017-03-09 18:09:58
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You wasting buffs that way. We're not using precision, hunters or more then one madrigal if that. My lowest acc set is 1210 with Rag and like 1160 with Chango. 1100 standing outside MH is standard to build basic strategy around. Hell my Bravura DT set has somewhere around 1220 acc with 50% DT 5-hit and lots of DA. Anyhow nobody should be deliberately ignoring accuracy, it only bites them in the ***.
 Ragnarok.Ejiin
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By Ragnarok.Ejiin 2017-03-09 18:17:16
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It doesn't matter if your QA3 has 0 accuracy as long as you're, in the end, capping accuray. Using a TP set that has 150 extra accuracy is an unnecessary DPS drop.

From what I've seen on both SAM and WAR(and I assume all 2hand DDs) is that any QA3 alone will be a better upgrade, though some are smaller upgrades depending on slot. For example, QA3 Valorous Mask won't be a huge upgrade over Flamma because it's only 1 extra round compared to Valorous body/feet where it's 4 extra rounds on an already strong TP piece.
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 Fenrir.Snaps
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By Fenrir.Snaps 2017-03-09 18:18:44
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Ragnarok.Ejiin said: »
Getting back into WAR and working on updating the guide. I'd like to go the BLU guide route and offer an absolute perfect tier sets that include perfect Oseem augments and then a HQ tier that's a bit more realistic to obtain. Then baseline sets for people just returning to WAR and want to know where to start. What do you guys think?

For the dream tier set I'm getting this:

ItemSet 349896
QA+3 on Valorous and Odyssean.

Which is about 300 DPS better than anything I could find that was posted recently. Can anyone beat it?

For HQ tier I'll use Saevel's as a baseline, but am open to suggestions/input.

ItemSet 342759

As for WS, it's probably agreed that 5/5 Argosy +1 is top tier, with some well augmented Taupe(STR+13-15/DA+3-4) Valorous being a solid alternative/replacement depending on how lucky you get with acc/atk augments.

However, for Mighty Strikes Resolution, assuming accuracy is not a major issue, Valorous with STR10+ and Crit. Damage+3-5 blows Argosy+1 out of the water:

ItemSet 257998

Using QA gear is situational for any 2 hander. If you're rolling with a COR and you end up using QA augments and lose a 3 hit build because of it, your DPS is going to go down. What you can do is define a combat mode (3 hit vs 4 hit) that changes based on your COR buff potency and hook on incoming action packets to change your combat mode (or do it manually.)

Using crit damage augments for Reso when Mighty Strikes is active is definitely the way to go.
 Asura.Azagarth
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By Asura.Azagarth 2017-03-09 18:19:51
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I definitely see where your coming from. But like Saevel my shells normally arent having that many acc buffs, as defensive buffs on most nms are needed now that matter. I still am skeptical in practice if a QA build would really be best for a proper xhit ta/da set.
 Ragnarok.Ejiin
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By Ragnarok.Ejiin 2017-03-09 18:26:24
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Fenrir.Snaps said: »
Using QA gear is situational for any 2 hander. If you're rolling with a COR and you end up using QA augments and lose a 3 hit build because of it, your DPS is going to go down. What you can do is define a combat mode (3 hit vs 4 hit) that changes based on your COR buff potency and hook on incoming action packets to change your combat mode (or do it manually.)

I wouldn't argue the logic or method, but I have yet to replicate any situation where adding more STP caused the QA set to lose. Even the 2 TP sets in the post I tested 0 20 40 60 70 84 STP and QA was always ahead. Could you provide a specific set where what you're saying would be the case?

Edit: Actually, I probably just misread what you meant. I assume you mean that you'd still be using QA gear, but would need to define exactly how much STP you need to hit that 3hit instead of being 1 STP short and having a 4hit instead.
 Ragnarok.Ejiin
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By Ragnarok.Ejiin 2017-03-09 18:35:15
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Asura.Azagarth said: »
But like Saevel my shells normally arent having that many acc buffs, as defensive buffs on most nms are needed now that matter.

The accuracy buffs I posted literally came from 1 job, the BRD. The others were food and vorseals. It doesn't get any more low maintenance than that.
 Asura.Azagarth
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By Asura.Azagarth 2017-03-09 18:42:58
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This is the set I always theorized for my calad on drk (because calds white dmg is a huge dps factor). War I would assume is identical. This set however needs more stp by far unless your depending on sams roll always being up. the legs/hands I got with QA 3 because nothing comes close in those slots for pure multi hit.

ItemSet 348476

I just dont see much use in the QA pieces with no acc when we have stuff so incredibly close anyhow that also has 30+ acc over what even a moderate acc QA would have.. While yes your brd could toss you 512 acc, its probably better to varry those buffs a bit since there are multiple jobs, and a lot of nms carols have been a bigger factor for resists (woc for example).
 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2017-03-09 23:36:39
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Ragnarok.Ejiin said: »
Asura.Azagarth said: »
But like Saevel my shells normally arent having that many acc buffs, as defensive buffs on most nms are needed now that matter.

The accuracy buffs I posted literally came from 1 job, the BRD. The others were food and vorseals. It doesn't get any more low maintenance than that.

You were using GEO acc buffs to hit those values while also using as many BRD accuracy buffs as possible. By relying you BRD your opening your entire run to Dispel *** You moves which annoying NM's like to do. Never skim on Accuracy or Haste buffs, it's always best to go over a bit that way in case something really bad like Blind / Accuracy Down / Dispel / Slowga / Weakness / -DT sets your able to cope and not slam into a damage wall.

Bad ***happens in FFXI, plan for it. People like to pretend everything is like that one perfect run they had, while ignoring the other three times they had an issue pop up that they powered through.

Which brings up another point, WAR and Store TP on 431 ~ 480 delay weapons. You are going to be pushing lots of Store TP to hit the 5-hit base line that gets turned into a 4-hit with SAM's roll. 3-hit is nonexistant on any job that's not SAM without throwing every single scrap of Store TP and ending up loosing DPS from not having Multi-Attack.

431 Delay (Rag) = 122.36 TP/hit, for a 5-hit you need 64 Store TP, for 4-hit you need 105 Store TP, for a 3-hit you would need 173 Store TP. Moving on to 480 Delay your getting 134.33 per hit, 49 for 5-hit, 87 for 4-hit, 148 for 3-hit. Hitting 5-hit on Rag can be annoying unless your doing silly ***like Store TP +10 JSE cape, but on Ukon / Bravura is easy and extremely easy on Chango. 4-hit on Rag is technically possibly but is a huge *** DPS loss, 4-hit on Bravura / Ukon isn't as bad but still very dependent on sketchy and 4-hit on Chango isn't that hard but your still giving up quite a bit of multi-attack for it. This is all without SAM's roll which basically just bumps a 5-hit to a 4-hit and if Cutting Cards perfect 11 it bumps a 4-hit to a 3-hit. Which brings me to a very important point, TP generation is about more then just Store TP. It's a combination of Haste, Accuracy, Multi-Attack and Store TP for an averaged time till 1000. Multi-attack is already favored over Store TP because it generates TP and does damage but WAR's JSE cape slides the scale even further because the +20% Damage applies to both the original hit and the proced DA. I've actually done really silly ***like use Samurai + Fighter rolls and had 100% DA for insane TP speed and seven hit resolutions. You can proc DA on retaliations and the cape bonus applies there too.

Which brings me to by final point on this long post. I've since transitioned into using Defensive food on WAR if we're going to be overcapping accuracy. A dead DD deals no damage and higher end ***can have devastating attacks, especially now that Vex/Attune have been nerfed. Miso Ramen is a nice healthy boost to your survivability. It's HP, defense, magic defense, magic evasion and even resist slow for shits and giggles. BRD's Carol's are extremely potent for blocking bad stuff like Stun and Amnesia.
 Ragnarok.Ejiin
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By Ragnarok.Ejiin 2017-03-09 23:54:18
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Uh, that's why we have accuracy swaps. No one is arguing not having higher accuracy sets when the situation calls for it, but you're intentionally gimping yourself starting with an inferior TP set with 150 extra accuracy because "***might go bad" You swap to it when ***actually goes bad.

If you don't like BRD, that's fine, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't make sets assuming they are around.
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 Ragnarok.Fasaga
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By Ragnarok.Fasaga 2017-03-10 07:07:14
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Ragnarok.Ejiin said: »
Uh, that's why we have accuracy swaps. No one is arguing not having higher accuracy sets when the situation calls for it, but you're intentionally gimping yourself starting with an inferior TP set with 150 extra accuracy because "***might go bad" You swap to it when ***actually goes bad.

If you don't like BRD, that's fine, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't make sets assuming they are around.

*Gasp* how dare you suggest we have more than one TP set, what blasphemy
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 Ragnarok.Primex
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By Ragnarok.Primex 2017-03-10 07:41:16
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110 million in - head and hands next. Also seeing with both Rag and Ukon my 5hit Multi-atk set always performs better than xhit build, be it fodder or higher teired content - as long as I'm compensating with food and buffs for accuracy.
I can find creative ways to get more accuracy, but there's no options to get more QA from buffs.
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By Blazed1979 2017-03-10 08:01:13
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Ragnarok.Ejiin said: »
For the dream tier set I'm getting this:

Ragnarok Dream TP Lo
I have Hetairoi ring beating that instead of petrov.
and Chir.+1 when using 2x march/2x minuet.
 Ragnarok.Ejiin
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By Ragnarok.Ejiin 2017-03-10 08:41:43
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I understand people's weariness with DM augments, but those same people are willing to spend 200-400M on jinxed/voodoo for slight upgrades to DPS. Dark Matter augments are almost exactly the same logic: Chances are (very) high you'll get QA3 in 200-400 attempts for a slight upgrade in DPS. I personally have 4 of 5 pieces with QA3 and have spent less on it than I did my Ryou+1 set.

It's not for the light hearted, but as Primex said, there's no substitute for QA, especially for 2handers.
 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2017-03-10 09:33:14
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HQ abjurations are for accuracy. You can get better general stats from Reisen gear and stones. This isn't abyssea where you can ignore accuracy cause "thats someone elses job". 1100 acc standing outside MH is baseline that you then adjust from there.

True atory, people don't kill dragon in Ru'Ann often and thus won't have blessing of fortitude up. That nerfs all those vorseal buffs by half. WoC and Kirin are the two 150 fights in that zone, WoC having a ***ton of evasion. Both like to use extremely bad status ailments which are blockable with carol stacking. Not being constantly stunned or slowed is a greater DPS boost then QA with undergeared acc, not to mention not dieing.

Ragnarok.Ejiin said: »
It's not for the light hearted, but as Primex said, there's no substitute for QA, especially for 2handers.

This is ***. QA is just multi-attack and is the exact same as all other multi-attack. 1 QA is approximately the same as 3 DA and 1.5 TA. 3QA is weaker then 9DA and WAR has a few pieces with HELP I AM TRAPPED IN 2006 PLEASE SEND A TIME MACHINE DA. The only benefit to QA is if your at near 100 DA first since you can't go over 2.0 average attack round with just DA. In WARs case DA is worth slightly more due to extra bonus damage during TP and retaliation.

My take is that Ejin is probably using disposable mule buffers on content thats removed from party. It's a tactic I never build gear advice around because it's available to a select few. The other thing of note is that he's trying to squeeze his SAM gear into his WAR sets and doesn't want to bother with the other stuff. I've done a ***ton of content with WAR, even atuff nobody wanted to bring melee to back before it became popular. Never short yourself on accuracy, evar. Recent evasion nerfs just made these things killable with needing my level gear, it didn't make accuracy obsolete.

When I get home later I will explain every gear choice im my sets, they aren't random.

Did quick math check while at work. Pummelers +3 feet vs Valorous 3QA feet. In my current TP set of 81% DA I have 1.857 average attack rounds. Swaping QA feet is 1.838 average attack rounds for a 1% loss in TP gain, a ***ton of accuracy loss and another 1.2% loss in melee damage from WAR cape.

Multi-attack experiences diminishing returns so adding more QA won't help the comparison. So 9DA > 4TA > 3QA for comparison. And that's before I start comparing store TP which has been my bade ever since switching to Utu grip.
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By mrpresident 2017-03-10 10:20:39
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Ragnarok.Primex said: »
110 million in - head and hands next.

Hey Prime, so you've only spent 110M and ended up with augs like what you had posted? I say "only", but 110M seems like a reasonable price tag for results on two pieces like those, especially considering the 200M+ alternatives with cursed gear.
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By Asura.Fiasko 2017-03-10 11:08:27
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Ejiin how did you get boii calligae to beat an augmented Valorous Greaves (STR/CritDmg) in your MS-Resolution set? With STR/CritDmg augments you would gain 11+ STR and what ever attack augment(+12 base) you got and only lose 1-3CritDmg.
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By Fenrir.Snaps 2017-03-10 11:15:50
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Ragnarok.Ejiin said: »
Fenrir.Snaps said: »
Using QA gear is situational for any 2 hander. If you're rolling with a COR and you end up using QA augments and lose a 3 hit build because of it, your DPS is going to go down. What you can do is define a combat mode (3 hit vs 4 hit) that changes based on your COR buff potency and hook on incoming action packets to change your combat mode (or do it manually.)

I wouldn't argue the logic or method, but I have yet to replicate any situation where adding more STP caused the QA set to lose. Even the 2 TP sets in the post I tested 0 20 40 60 70 84 STP and QA was always ahead. Could you provide a specific set where what you're saying would be the case?

Edit: Actually, I probably just misread what you meant. I assume you mean that you'd still be using QA gear, but would need to define exactly how much STP you need to hit that 3hit instead of being 1 STP short and having a 4hit instead.

Yes, that's correct. It is possible to maintain a 3 hit for any 2 hander. It's also difficult to do, so I'm curious as to what pieces of gear you can actually use QA on.
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2017-03-10 11:51:41
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When is the next Dark Matter Campaign?

:(
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By Zillion 2017-03-10 12:16:02
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Fenrir.Snaps said: »
It is possible to maintain a 3 hit for any 2 hander

how?
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By Fenrir.Snaps 2017-03-10 13:18:19
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Zillion said: »
Fenrir.Snaps said: »
It is possible to maintain a 3 hit for any 2 hander

how?

Samurai Roll + the right gear. WAR is probably the most difficult job to pull it off because of the relatively low delay on Ragnarok and the lack of native Store TP. It's much easier if you can abuse crooked cards XI (easy for escha zergs because of super revit.)
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By Asura.Azagarth 2017-03-10 13:23:28
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I think the issue with the QA set is this.

Head: flamma , the TA here is basically equal to a valo head QA in terms of avg hits a round. Issue here is the 5 step is not in valo head and imo this is the real reason flamma wins, not counting the realistic increase in acc.

Body: valo would have 3 QA and 2 DA. This will kinda beat dragons breatsplate. However 5 TA is damn near it , literally the reason valo DPS would win is more due to the 3stp it has.... Food for thought.

Hands: our best multi hit option s here are 5 Da. A valo hand QA sug here would be awesome when you don't need the acc or -dt.

Legs: we have Da 10/11 option here now. Odys legs ideally would be best QA though bc you need the store tp. So yes 3 QA 2 DA vs 10/11 da. It's equal more or less, wins due to stp.

Feet: same as above. War AF+3 feet are crazy. I don't see them being beat. Drk has shitty feet and stuck with flamma. So for drk, could benefit from QA feet here. I may go after them tbh.

I'm just not seeing the point to drop 1 billion on dark matter. Sure QA set is fun but saying it's better.... I'm not seeing it. Now add non DPS issues with low acc, or the fact you can use different foods that aren't sushi which is the acc difference or more between these sets. Fact your not getting all those buffs for most group just for your acc... Isn't there a food with 5 TA anyhow but nothing else? Think I remember seeing one I bet that would be more impactful if you really didn't need acc, than the QA set.
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By Ragnarok.Ejiin 2017-03-10 13:25:45
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Asura.Saevel said: »
HQ abjurations are for accuracy. You can get better general stats from Reisen gear and stones. This isn't abyssea where you can ignore accuracy cause "thats someone elses job". 1100 acc standing outside MH is baseline that you then adjust from there.

Again... You can have all the high accuracy sets you want, but burying your head in the sand to the vast majority of situations it isn't required is bad form.

Asura.Saevel said: »
True atory, people don't kill dragon in Ru'Ann often and thus won't have blessing of fortitude up. That nerfs all those vorseal buffs by half. WoC and Kirin are the two 150 fights in that zone, WoC having a ***ton of evasion. Both like to use extremely bad status ailments which are blockable with carol stacking. Not being constantly stunned or slowed is a greater DPS boost then QA with undergeared acc, not to mention not dieing.

I accounted for this in my example above. WoC is not that evasive. And BRD can give you 11min of 512 accuracy with three songs. Leaving room for other buffing jobs to do other stuff.


Asura.Saevel said: »
This is ***. QA is just multi-attack and is the exact same as all other multi-attack. 1 QA is approximately the same as 3 DA and 1.5 TA. 3QA is weaker then 9DA and WAR has a few pieces with HELP I AM TRAPPED IN 2006 PLEASE SEND A TIME MACHINE DA. The only benefit to QA is if your at near 100 DA first since you can't go over 2.0 average attack round with just DA. In WARs case DA is worth slightly more due to extra bonus damage during TP and retaliation.

QA has proc priority. You're so salty right now that you're just ranting to avoid having to improve your gear.

Asura.Saevel said: »
My take is that Ejin is probably using disposable mule buffers on content thats removed from party. It's a tactic I never build gear advice around because it's available to a select few. The other thing of note is that he's trying to squeeze his SAM gear into his WAR sets and doesn't want to bother with the other stuff. I've done a ***ton of content with WAR, even atuff nobody wanted to bring melee to back before it became popular. Never short yourself on accuracy, evar. Recent evasion nerfs just made these things killable with needing my level gear, it didn't make accuracy obsolete.

Not true. We used 13 for every single NM and we never dropped a person for any of the NMs. For 150 content we used 2 BRD, 2 GEO, 1 COR and 1 SCH for our buffing jobs. All stayed in alliance when we popped.

And no, I wouldn't recommend or use anything without checking it first in both spreadsheets and in practice. Unlike you, I have actually done a full melee aeonic round since the update and I am giving my first hand experience of what was required accuracy-wise.

I'm sorry your set that you probably spent 1B on is now obsolete in a majority of situations, but arguing tooth and nail won't change the truth that it's now inferior in a lot of situations. It's time to accept your loss and move on.
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 Fenrir.Snaps
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By Fenrir.Snaps 2017-03-10 13:29:21
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I'd like to note that we did WoC with just BLU and SAM for DD with a BRD that doesn't have Aeonic and I still used my lowest accuracy set. So yeah the accuracy argument is pretty dumb. If you don't have sets with no deliberate accuracy then you're just gimping your own DPS out of personal preference.
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By Ragnarok.Ejiin 2017-03-10 13:54:34
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Asura.Fiasko said: »
Ejiin how did you get boii calligae to beat an augmented Valorous Greaves (STR/CritDmg) in your MS-Resolution set? With STR/CritDmg augments you would gain 11+ STR and what ever attack augment(+12 base) you got and only lose 1-3CritDmg.

Good catch. Looks like Valorous would need 4+ crit. damage and 10+ STR, though.
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By Asura.Saevel 2017-03-10 14:18:07
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And now we see what Ej is really up to.

I did the math..

1000 attacks (4% TA 81% DA)
40 TA = +80 hits
777 DA = + 777 hits
183 SA hits remaining.
Total hits are 1857 for an average of 1.857

1000 attacks (3% QA 4% TA 72% DA)
30 QA = +90 hits
39 TA = +78 hits
670 DA = +670 hits
261 SA hits remaining.
1838 total hits for average of 1.838

And that's without considering accuracy, store TP or +DA damage from JSE cape.

The top is where I am at now and I have barely enough store TP for a 5-hit. I can't even fit in WAR +3 pants because I would lose 11 store TP from that slot. With Chango I can do Pummelers pants. I'm using Flamma head for the Store TP, same with HQ Emicho hands. The hands / body are combo because I can get 7 Store TP and 9 DA with accuracy being a bonus. I can see a well augmented Valorous body / hands being able to do about the same thing.

Looking over the proposed sets I don't see where the store TP is coming from, which makes me believe it's from the cape in the attempt to cover for QA augments.
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