The Parthenon: A Warrior's Kyklos

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The Parthenon: A Warrior's Kyklos
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 Lakshmi.Saevel
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By Lakshmi.Saevel 2013-12-07 23:04:02
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Odin.Jassik said: »
Ya, that's about what i expected. I would imagine DW axe starts to fall significantly behind in other zones where DEF values are lower and ACC matters more.

Actually no reread it again. That was with capped attack, accuracy, no aura on Tojil and 45%+ defense down, basically the perfect scenario for GAXE. Also acc is far more interesting because DW main hand has significantly more acc then RF.

http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Razorfury

RF is STR +7 Skill +215, so +220 attack and +193 acc (assuming 0.9 is still being used, I've heard that it might be 1 point to 0.8 acc).

Kerehcatl is Attack +13 / Accuracy +13 Skill + 242, so +255 Attack and +230 accuracy with 13 of that accuracy carrying to the off hand.

Hatxiik is STR +12 DA +2 Skill +188, so +194 Attack and +169 Acc.

When you add them all together you get

MH: +264 Attack, +230 Accuracy
OH: +207 Attack, +182 Accuracy

Main hand your WAY beyond RF for accuracy, OF your 11 behind, 21 when you could Hasso.

Most of what we're seeing is a result of RF being 117 and KH combo being 119/115 respectively. Should you wield a 119 Axe in you off hand like a Farsha (just for arguments sake) then accuracy becomes a non-issue. Of course a 119 GAXE or GSWD is the real answer here, using Axe/Axe is just a stopgap while someone is building their real weapon.
 Ramuh.Austar
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By Ramuh.Austar 2013-12-07 23:13:24
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Lakshmi.Saevel said: »
assuming 0.9 is still being used, I've heard that it might be 1 point to 0.8 acc
I still want to see the testing for 1 skill = .9 acc, let alone .8
 Lakshmi.Saevel
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By Lakshmi.Saevel 2013-12-07 23:31:49
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Ramuh.Austar said: »
Lakshmi.Saevel said: »
assuming 0.9 is still being used, I've heard that it might be 1 point to 0.8 acc
I still want to see the testing for 1 skill = .9 acc, let alone .8

They did it about six years ago and I've long since lost the source info.

A note on the acc explained about. Only half of your melee hits and 1/5 of your WS hits are from your off hand. That means a 10% lower hit rate on your off hand is only a 5% lower total accuracy rate. So while accuracy is important to remember, it's not as big an issue as people would think.

Anyhow I went on this tangent because this is the situation I am in. I'm in the process of acquiring Plutons to upgrade my Rag and I had to decide to spend the gil on RF or on more Plutons. I already have Kere / Hax from doing Delve and WKR. I ran the numbers and was surprised how close they were to RF, often beating it even. So that was 10M of gil that went to more Plutons for my eventual Rag and later Bravura.
 Ramuh.Austar
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By Ramuh.Austar 2013-12-07 23:35:54
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Lakshmi.Saevel said: »
They did it about six years ago and I've long since lost the source info.
I've never seen a source on it, is why I want to.
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By Shiva.Onorgul 2013-12-07 23:45:43
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I know this is just obnoxious anecdote and you're free to ignore it, but I remember when someone first quantified the whole .9 thing and I read the research back when it was done. It was solid. It might take ages to dig back up, though, since no one disputes it anymore.
 Ramuh.Austar
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By Ramuh.Austar 2013-12-07 23:47:17
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I just think its HELP I AM TRAPPED IN 2006 PLEASE SEND A TIME MACHINE skill would suddenly change from 1-1 to 1-.09, while attack remained unchanged.
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By Shiva.Onorgul 2013-12-07 23:57:45
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It is really stupid, but if you take a glance at any of the game mechanics equations in FFXI, you'd see a lot of over-engineering that could have been avoided by simplifying other parts of the game. I'm certain the Accuracy change after 200 skill was an attempt to keep player Accuracy under control given most monsters are WAR and, thus, have lackluster Evasion. It would have been less irritating (for the players, anyhow) if they'd either removed jobs from mobs or made mob-specific job templates that would suit their needs.
 Ramuh.Austar
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By Ramuh.Austar 2013-12-07 23:59:59
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We had what, torques, besides natural skill at the time? That's it. Just seems so stupid.
 Shiva.Onorgul
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By Shiva.Onorgul 2013-12-08 00:02:54
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This has to date back to the start of Rise of the Zilart and the original 75 cap (vanilla had a cap of 50 for a long time and players would often level up by just soloing since the grind to 50 wasn't that harsh), if it wasn't in the base code from the start, so it predates any kind of Skill+ items.
 Phoenix.Dramatica
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By Phoenix.Dramatica 2013-12-08 00:45:04
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I remember seeing pretty recent testing on it on BG, at least I'm sure there was something proving evasion was .9. Should be a very easy test via check and 2 different characters no?
 Ragnarok.Ejiin
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By Ragnarok.Ejiin 2013-12-08 00:58:54
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Well, combat skill's 1:1 for attack, so it would seem weird for accuracy to be calculated differently.
[+]
 Shiva.Alexcenders
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By Shiva.Alexcenders 2013-12-08 01:00:19
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damn lookin at you girl make me feel to keep playin ffxi
 Odin.Jassik
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By Odin.Jassik 2013-12-08 03:00:49
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it doesn't alter the argument very much, but WAR has A+ (424) skill in Gaxe and A- (417) skill in Axe, not to mention most WAR's will have Gaxe merits and not Axe merits. (unless they haven't altered their merits since ToAU)
 Lakshmi.Saevel
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By Lakshmi.Saevel 2013-12-08 05:15:32
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Ramuh.Austar said: »
We had what, torques, besides natural skill at the time? That's it. Just seems so stupid.

Original JP version was 60 cap which was about 200 skill with very little difference between skill ranks. After 60 they widened the disparity between C, B and A. My guess was that since monsters have a C in evasion and can't equip gear or eat food SE wanted to ensure we didn't end up with ridiculous accuracy. Hit rates and LCF was how they controlled difficulty though the majority of this games history so it makes sense. What Onorgul says is spot on, SE tends to make band aid decisions to fix mechanical problems rather then go back and alter the mechanics.

@Jassik,

XP is stupid easy to get now, I've altered my merits several times since SoA came out and I'll be altering them again. Someone could easily have 5/5 Ruin and 8/8 Axe, then after getting 119 Conq / Bravura / Rag / Ukon they could easily change to 5/5 Reso / Upheavel and 8/8 GAXE / GSWD.
 Ramuh.Austar
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By Ramuh.Austar 2013-12-08 07:48:47
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Lakshmi.Saevel said: »
SE wanted to ensure we didn't end up with ridiculous accuracy
the difference in acc would have been like 8 points, not really enough difference to go through the trouble for all of that.

Shiva.Alexcenders said: »
damn lookin at you girl make me feel to keep playin ffxi
thank you?
 Cerberus.Doctorugh
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By Cerberus.Doctorugh 2013-12-08 08:49:41
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Quote:
1/5 of your WS hits are from your off hand.




I don't think that's how it works.
 Odin.Jassik
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By Odin.Jassik 2013-12-08 11:26:27
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Cerberus.Doctorugh said: »
Quote:
1/5 of your WS hits are from your off hand.




I don't think that's how it works.

I would be fairly easy to test, grab a non-iLVL offhand and do some testing of your TP return. Mainhand and offhand accuracy hasn't been something to worry about if you weren't offhanding a different weapon type until now.
 Lakshmi.Saevel
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By Lakshmi.Saevel 2013-12-08 11:34:53
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Cerberus.Doctorugh said: »
Quote:
1/5 of your WS hits are from your off hand.




I don't think that's how it works.


That's exactly how it works, at least with DW WS's. Ruinator is 4 hits with an extra hit from your off hand.

http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Ruinator

So four hits with main hand and one hit with off hand and thus 1/5 from your off hand.

The only fuzzy place is with respect to DA, are both DA procs from main hand or is one from main and one from off?
 Odin.Jassik
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By Odin.Jassik 2013-12-08 11:49:58
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Lakshmi.Saevel said: »
Cerberus.Doctorugh said: »
Quote:
1/5 of your WS hits are from your off hand.




I don't think that's how it works.


That's exactly how it works, at least with DW WS's. Ruinator is 4 hits with an extra hit from your off hand.

http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Ruinator

So four hits with main hand and one hit with off hand and thus 1/5 from your off hand.

The only fuzzy place is with respect to DA, are both DA procs from main hand or is one from main and one from off?

We know that the offhand hit is the 2nd hit and only hit besides the first mainhand that can multi-attack. The question is whether accuracy/damage of the offhand is calculated separately or if it's only the mainhand. While offhanding a club on NIN, I never noticed my accuracy or WS damage being different than offhanding a katana. My club skill was significantly lower than katana skill at that time. It's also not known if the added skill/acc/att on iLVL weapons has an effect in the offhand for WS calculations.
 Lakshmi.Saevel
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By Lakshmi.Saevel 2013-12-09 04:11:21
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Odin.Jassik said: »
Lakshmi.Saevel said: »
Cerberus.Doctorugh said: »
Quote:
1/5 of your WS hits are from your off hand.




I don't think that's how it works.


That's exactly how it works, at least with DW WS's. Ruinator is 4 hits with an extra hit from your off hand.

http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Ruinator

So four hits with main hand and one hit with off hand and thus 1/5 from your off hand.

The only fuzzy place is with respect to DA, are both DA procs from main hand or is one from main and one from off?

We know that the offhand hit is the 2nd hit and only hit besides the first mainhand that can multi-attack. The question is whether accuracy/damage of the offhand is calculated separately or if it's only the mainhand. While offhanding a club on NIN, I never noticed my accuracy or WS damage being different than offhanding a katana. My club skill was significantly lower than katana skill at that time. It's also not known if the added skill/acc/att on iLVL weapons has an effect in the offhand for WS calculations.

Off hand is separate damage calculation with respect to skill. This was known years ago in the days of Maneater/Riddil spampage WAR. The off hand Ridill had lower atk / acc then the mainhand ME by virtue of having a lower skill rating. Since the new weapons are just +skill to that hand we have no reason to think the it would be any different. The crits from Heart Snatcher for example only apply to that hands hits, even during WS, hence it sucked badly. And while there exists the possibility that SE completely redid their combat engine without us noticing, I highly doubt it and will retain the previous rules until demonstrated otherwise.
 Bismarck.Marmite
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By Bismarck.Marmite 2013-12-09 08:52:08
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Apologies if this has be brought up recently. I finally got my Ukon to 119 and started checking the best mighty strikes setups. Rag used to pull way ahead of anything else at level 99, but according to my spreadsheet math the gap has been closed significantly with Ukon119 vs Rag119. No doubt conq would rape them both, but I'm not likely to get that, ever.

Anyone else looked into this?

I used 18% on ODD option on the spreadsheet as it doesn't appear to have a 2.5 option for relics. Used 30% ODD for ukon.

Reso damage is way ahead of Upheaval as I expected. but the melee damage and ws frequency of ukon makes up a lot.

Set dps values:
Ukon - 1682.739
Rag - 1694.676

Based on tojil, using MS, Hasso, Berserk, Aggressor, Restraint, RCB, Haste, Chaos, Fighters, SV Minuet x3, SV March x2, SV Madrigalx1, Angon, Dia2, Frailty.

Rag Sets:
TP
Ragnarok (119)
Brave Grip
Fire Bomblet
Yaoyotl
Asperity
Bladeborn
Steelflash
Gorney
Mikinaak R15 Str
Rajas
K'ayres
Letalis
Windbuffet
Ravager +2
Whirlpool

Reso
Ragnarok (119)
Brave Grip
Ravager
Yaoyotl
Gorget
Brutal
Moonshade AttTP
Mikinaak R15 Str
Mikinaak R15 Str
Candent
Pyrosoul
Cavaros
Ele.Belt
Cizin
Hrafn

Ukon Sets
TP
Ukonvasara (119)
Brave Grip
Fire Bomblet
Yaoyotl
Asperity
Bladeborn
Steelflash
Gorney
Mikinaak R15 Str
Rajas
K'ayres
Letalis
Windbuffet
Ravager +2
Whirlpool

Upheaval
Ukonvasara (119)
Brave Grip
Brigantia Pebble
Yaoyotl
Apathy
Brutal
Moonshade AttTP
Cizin
Cizin
Terrasoul
Terrasoul
Cavaros
Windbuffet
Cizin
Hrafn


It's highly possible that I'm missing something or perhaps rag gear sets are not the best.

Any input would be greatly appreciated.
 Odin.Jassik
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By Odin.Jassik 2013-12-09 14:16:25
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I'd imagine hecatomb+1 hands with 4% crit damage are still the best hands for mighty strikes.
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By innit 2013-12-09 15:18:15
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I have heca+1 with crit dmg +4% and acc+3 and are 186 off Cizin for upheaval, but only 7 points off Mikinaak for reso. Spent so much time and gil getting that aug too.

Looked at other crit dmg gear also like osode and haidate which just doesn't cut it anymore :(

I would use Cizin mail for tp also if I could get the DA+2 aug, and I guess the oto helm thingy if I ever get it. I do have the blue helm, as an option, which could also work considering the amount of DA with warrior.
 Bismarck.Marmite
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By Bismarck.Marmite 2013-12-09 15:51:23
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Ok, I forgot Ravager's Calligae +2 for both tp sets, which brings the comparison even closer.

Ukon - 1745.303
Rag - 1746.201
 Shiva.Onorgul
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By Shiva.Onorgul 2013-12-09 16:03:33
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If the comparison is that narrow, why not just use whatever you like? Worrying about .01% DPS in a 5 minute fight is a bit neurotic, innit?
 Bismarck.Marmite
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By Bismarck.Marmite 2013-12-09 16:21:45
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Oh yes I agree, I was simply surprised by the numbers. This being a forum, thought I'd share the information I've found as nobody seems to have covered it.
 Odin.Jassik
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By Odin.Jassik 2013-12-09 17:06:51
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innit said: »
I have heca+1 with crit dmg +4% and acc+3 and are 186 off Cizin for upheaval, but only 7 points off Mikinaak for reso. Spent so much time and gil getting that aug too.

Looked at other crit dmg gear also like osode and haidate which just doesn't cut it anymore :(

I would use Cizin mail for tp also if I could get the DA+2 aug, and I guess the oto helm thingy if I ever get it. I do have the blue helm, as an option, which could also work considering the amount of DA with warrior.

That's surprising, but I guess you can't really compete with the raw stats on the skirmish and delve gear. It doesn't look like there's a massive difference, though, considering how much higher the stats are on the Adoulin gear.
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By Lakshmi.Saevel 2013-12-10 04:04:27
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Odin.Jassik said: »
innit said: »
I have heca+1 with crit dmg +4% and acc+3 and are 186 off Cizin for upheaval, but only 7 points off Mikinaak for reso. Spent so much time and gil getting that aug too.

Looked at other crit dmg gear also like osode and haidate which just doesn't cut it anymore :(

I would use Cizin mail for tp also if I could get the DA+2 aug, and I guess the oto helm thingy if I ever get it. I do have the blue helm, as an option, which could also work considering the amount of DA with warrior.

That's surprising, but I guess you can't really compete with the raw stats on the skirmish and delve gear. It doesn't look like there's a massive difference, though, considering how much higher the stats are on the Adoulin gear.

That's happening a lot now. The sheer amount of stats we have to play with allows for some very interesting results. See the previous pages DW findings which took me 100% by surprise when I ran them. I wouldn't be surprised if we see another reshuffling of things once the 119 AF is released and the next three delve zones become available along with 119 Delve weapons for GAXE / GSWD / Scyth / Katana and crafted 117 Axe / Sword / Dagger.
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By Kyler 2013-12-10 20:34:35
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Odin.Jassik said: »
innit said: »
I have heca+1 with crit dmg +4% and acc+3 and are 186 off Cizin for upheaval, but only 7 points off Mikinaak for reso. Spent so much time and gil getting that aug too.

Looked at other crit dmg gear also like osode and haidate which just doesn't cut it anymore :(

I would use Cizin mail for tp also if I could get the DA+2 aug, and I guess the oto helm thingy if I ever get it. I do have the blue helm, as an option, which could also work considering the amount of DA with warrior.

That's surprising, but I guess you can't really compete with the raw stats on the skirmish and delve gear. It doesn't look like there's a massive difference, though, considering how much higher the stats are on the Adoulin gear.

Just goes to show you how far ahead war gear was before. Plus a lot of the stats become meaningless when you look at the stats at what you are fighting. Sure there is no level correction but we weren't at a point where DDex, fSTR cap, evasion etc were so far from being relevant. Yet with ilvl skill + we are accuracy and attack capped. It's just a situation that didn't really occur before.
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By Lakshmi.Saevel 2013-12-12 06:37:15
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Ok new 119 GAXE and 117 Axe, 117 Sword (req), not sure where everything lines up now.

http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Eminent_Axe

http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Castigation

I'm thinking that Castigation + Upheaval would be monstrous.
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