The Parthenon: A Warrior's Kyklos

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The Parthenon: A Warrior's Kyklos
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 Cerberus.Darkvlade
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By Cerberus.Darkvlade 2021-10-16 12:07:53
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Simon is that your ukko’s fury ws set or your AM3 set?
 Asura.Nuance
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By Asura.Nuance 2021-10-16 13:13:44
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Literally says it’s his ukkos set
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By 2021-10-16 13:20:50
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By Kikomizuhara 2021-10-16 14:16:21
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I like the the amount of attack on relic head. I can see that helping those PDL pieces. I like just spamming Ukko's instead of switching to upheaval /shrug mobs still die fast.
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By SimonSes 2021-10-16 17:18:10
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Kikomizuhara said: »
I like the the amount of attack on relic head. I can see that helping those PDL pieces. I like just spamming Ukko's instead of switching to upheaval /shrug mobs still die fast.

I can understand this, but 2000+ Upheaval is doing 40-50k, while 2000+ Ukko's usually around 32k. There are rare spikes to 45k+, but its not something you can count on. Whatever WS you do tho, its better to wait till 2000+TP. White damage is just too high to pause it to make weak WS. 10k+ melee rounds are very common, but 25k+ rounds arent something rare too.
 Bahamut.Khelder
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By Bahamut.Khelder 2021-10-16 18:22:56
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Asura.Sirris said: »
Bahamut.Yiazmat said: »
Asura.Sirris said: »
Elikins said: »
Hey guys, looking at building a cloudsplitter build, Is it geared with 5/5 Nyame now at R20? If anyone has a set I'd appreciate you posting, Currently I do not have a Farsha, so would the Ambu axe be an ok substitute until then? Thanks :-)

This is what I use with R15 Farsha and Cloudsplitter:

ItemSet 369648

Unless you have godly DM augments on Valorous or Odyssean, yes, you'll use Nyame. Not quite decided on the offhand, could also do Tauret for higher macc and MND.

WAR cant equip Tauret sadly.
Have you considered Ternion +1 R15 ? Macc 40, Acc 67, WSD5%. Or could it be way worst than Male ?

Crap, you are right (which is why I had Dolichenus originally). Ternion +1 has a nice delay and multihit/WSD but no mab or base stats, unfortunately.


It might be a pain to obtain but Crepuscular Knife is likely a superior Offhand for Dual Wield Farsha. Especially if you're WS'ing in Nyame with or without full augments. Nyame has a large amount of CHR on it. Is it superior to 44 MAB and a 118 Magic DMG? Someone with more number crunching skills than I would have to figure that out.

However you're gaining 40 Accuracy, plus skill, 5% Quad attack, and the 3% CHR ws mod plus the random drain effects. It seems like a reasonable Side grade at the least to me.
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 Shiva.Flowen
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By Shiva.Flowen 2021-10-18 10:16:07
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Bahamut.Khelder said: »
Asura.Sirris said: »
Bahamut.Yiazmat said: »
Asura.Sirris said: »
Elikins said: »
Hey guys, looking at building a cloudsplitter build, Is it geared with 5/5 Nyame now at R20? If anyone has a set I'd appreciate you posting, Currently I do not have a Farsha, so would the Ambu axe be an ok substitute until then? Thanks :-)

This is what I use with R15 Farsha and Cloudsplitter:

ItemSet 369648

Unless you have godly DM augments on Valorous or Odyssean, yes, you'll use Nyame. Not quite decided on the offhand, could also do Tauret for higher macc and MND.

WAR cant equip Tauret sadly.
Have you considered Ternion +1 R15 ? Macc 40, Acc 67, WSD5%. Or could it be way worst than Male ?

Crap, you are right (which is why I had Dolichenus originally). Ternion +1 has a nice delay and multihit/WSD but no mab or base stats, unfortunately.


It might be a pain to obtain but Crepuscular Knife is likely a superior Offhand for Dual Wield Farsha. Especially if you're WS'ing in Nyame with or without full augments. Nyame has a large amount of CHR on it. Is it superior to 44 MAB and a 118 Magic DMG? Someone with more number crunching skills than I would have to figure that out.

However you're gaining 40 Accuracy, plus skill, 5% Quad attack, and the 3% CHR ws mod plus the random drain effects. It seems like a reasonable Side grade at the least to me.

3% CHR mod is no where near as good as a malevolance offhand for cloudsplitter. The set is at 160 CHR but with only a 3% it will be a modest boost to overall ws damage. 44MAB is probably adding close to 10% overall damage for most sets/situations.

It is more attractive for a physical set up, riding AM3 and using mistral axe. You would likely use seething bomblet for haste but it should out perform zantetsuken + tp ammo? The tp drain is probably where it gains the biggest boost, depending on how impactful that is.
 
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By 2021-10-18 11:06:59
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By SimonSes 2021-10-18 12:34:24
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Dridian42 said: »
A Sub Wpn is a nice and all. However, you'll loose the effect of Fencer and maybe crippling your DPS. Blurred Shield +1 and 2kTP is where it's at.

I agree, DW build has more sense for Decimation where off hand hit adds a lot of damage on WS and tp bonus doesn't do anything. For builds based on WS with 90%+ damage on first hit and scaling with tp, Fencer is just too good.
 Bahamut.Khelder
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By Bahamut.Khelder 2021-10-18 15:43:40
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If we're taking specifically about cloud splitter damage the offhand Malevolence will give better WS numbers to be sure. Close to the 10%+ you're describing.I was referring to overall DPS including white damage and cloud splitter. ( Perhaps you were also? In which case I'd love to see your avg WS dmg )

Crepuscular knife has superior TP generation by far and still provides a bonus to your weaponskills, even if it is less impactful than Malevolence for cloudsplitter.

Unless you're using ONLY cloud splitter, say for a Zerde cheese situation. There's not a lot of point in using Malevolence. Cloudsplitter is much less reliable dmg wise, without a magic or thunder element weakness, than compared to Mistral Axe or Calamity.

Personally, I avoid dual wield and use Fencer build with Farsha. Watching triple dmg proc 5 rounds in a row is hilariously satisfying. But I've seen some nasty Dolichenus build before also satisfying. ( Ramble ramble)
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By SimonSes 2021-10-18 16:27:17
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Bahamut.Khelder said: »
Personally, I avoid dual wield and use Fencer build with Farsha. Watching triple dmg proc 5 rounds in a row is hilariously satisfying. But I've seen some nasty Dolichenus build before also satisfying. ( Ramble ramble)

I use Ukonvasara for same reason. Nothing is as cool as double attack AM3 crit proc, both hits doing 13k+ each :)
 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2021-10-19 11:15:30
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More like Fencer (on it's own) cripple's your DPS due to being so far under haste cap.

Asura.Saevel said: »
Please remember, the difference between 78.51% haste and 68.75% haste is 45% attack speed, DW is higher at 56%

Using a 100 delay weapon for simplicity sake

2H = 0.78515625 (0.21484375)
DW = 0.8 (0.2)
Fencer = 0.6875 (0.3125)

100 * 0.21484375 = 21.484
100 * 0.20 = 20.0
100 * 0.3125 = 31.25

31.25/20 = Fencer is 56.25% slower then DW
31.25/21.484 = Fencer is 45.45% slower then 2H
21.484/20 = 2H is 7.4% slower the DW

Fencer didn't magically become amazing, it's always been this way and we've been talking about Fencer Savage as an option since Adoulin. The reason it's behind the others is due to its extremely slow attack speed and therefor WS rate.

Push comes to shove can always make a Fernagu.
 Asura.Sirris
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By Asura.Sirris 2021-10-19 12:12:10
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That's what gives me pause about Fencer builds full time. We are largely forced to them in Odyssey but outside of that how often do you get Haste Samba from a main DNC or even /DNC? For something like Dyna-D or Zerde where I'd be using Cloudsplitter full-time in a magical party I'd rather dual-wield.

Just using Cloudsplitter for AM3 and then using Mistral Axe in a physical party, Fencer build is well-suited to that sure. You are getting more white damage without an OH.
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 Asura.Bippin
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By Asura.Bippin 2021-10-19 12:17:05
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Asura.Sirris said: »
We are largely forced to them in Odyssey
When are you forced?

Edit: Do you mean when you don't get subjob with NMs so no DW/Hasso?
 Asura.Sirris
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By Asura.Sirris 2021-10-19 12:18:47
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Asura.Bippin said: »
Asura.Sirris said: »
We are largely forced to them in Odyssey
When are you forced?

Edit: Do you mean when you don't get subjob with NMs so no DW/Hasso?

Yes, exactly, and even for segs most of warriors are running Naegling/Loxotic Fencer builds despite the slow TP rate.
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By Crossbones 2021-10-19 12:40:51
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For segments every parse I've ran between war/sam with chango/spear and war/drg with sword/club have basically been exactly the same if they are geared similarly. I don't think it matters at all for that specific piece of content. Higher ws avg with sword but much lower ws frequency than 2h but in the end it evens out. This is over the course of several months of running parse.
 Asura.Noxie
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By Asura.Noxie 2021-10-19 14:32:04
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Crossbones said: »
For segments every parse I've ran between war/sam with chango/spear and war/drg with sword/club have basically been exactly the same if they are geared similarly. I don't think it matters at all for that specific piece of content. Higher ws avg with sword but much lower ws frequency than 2h but in the end it evens out. This is over the course of several months of running parse.

To be fair there is a lot of "overkill" damage that gets parsed from Savage blade since most of the damage is frontloaded on the first hit. A 40k Savage blade killing a mob with 5k health remaining will pad the parse, but that means 35k of it is not contributing.

This is less a case for multi-hit WSes like Upheaval where only the hits necessary to kill the mob are counted, so there's less overkill damage, but war/sam with Chango will definitely have a higher WS frequency than SB Fencer for sure. So if they're parsing the same in seg runs, then the Chango is likely still doing more of the work.
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 Asura.Bippin
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By Asura.Bippin 2021-10-19 14:46:15
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Ody is not really the place, but take ambu this month Chango is worth using this month just for the SC or a war can use Decimation.


On DRK been using Liberator a ton just cause it SC with savage blade that everyone is doing.
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 Asura.Noxie
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By Asura.Noxie 2021-10-19 15:04:57
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Asura.Bippin said: »
Ody is not really the place, but take ambu this month Chango is worth using this month just for the SC or a war can use Decimation.


On DRK been using Liberator a ton just cause it SC with savage blade that everyone is doing.

I've been running Decimation for ambu this month. /nin just makes sense incase Excalibur pops the tank.
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By Crossbones 2021-10-19 17:46:55
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I don't see why ody isn't a realistic place to test combat stats in ody. That is current endgame and that's where those builds are used often. I also don't see why overkill damage should be disregarded. It is an assumption that that damage is wasted or used at a low hp percent when you don't know for sure that's the case, in fact in my experience once savage blade goes off from a war or drg the mob is dead because it hits for so much and mobs there don't have that much hp. This logic isn't applied to SC damage and most definitely is not applied to white damage. If a war kills a mob at 2% with an ukon crit should that damage be dismissed also? At some point you have to draw the line when data is representative or not. This leads into people gatekeeping about builds vs content where the only thing that should matter is said build in said content. Mythic am3 is a great example of this. Sometimes the fight is too short that building am3 can result in a net loss or moving camps too often can hurt you, and in other content you have plenty of time to either build am3 outside of a fight or maintain it easily in content. This is why I think context matters.
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By Kikomizuhara 2021-10-19 20:20:49
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Well for segments I try to notice killing speed (and not look at parses) because that ultimately brings in the segments. And fencer is a lil slow inherently. Overkilling a mob with tiny hp left won't clear the group of mobs any faster (or slower) but people like seeing the high numbers?

Fencer is great on stuff like Bumba so it all depends/situational. And I do use fencer with Farsha when I pt with a DNC... or on Zerde. Use all the things?
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By Crossbones 2021-10-19 21:41:45
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Who are these DDs you guys are running with that keep WSing at 5%? Is it really that common in your pugs or are people trying to customize scenarios that are in favor of their argument?

Also kiko, and I'm not trying to pick on anyone or nothing like that, but you're the last person that should be looking away from parses, cause I've seen your numbers from some of my boys that ran with you, and you should definitely take ppl's advice on not spamming ukkos cause you been getting straight carried son. Like by a lot.

Either way use w/e you want. I'm not saying one is better than the other. Just that in the dozens and dozens of runs I've done they come out basically the same and both are viable, which IMO is useful info for new players that can get hooked up with sakpata clears but don't have chango yet. They can cover two damage types and be competitive DPS wise.
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By Ramuh.Austar 2021-10-20 01:59:28
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Asura.Saevel said: »
More like Fencer (on it's own) cripple's your DPS due to being so far under haste cap.

Asura.Saevel said: »
Please remember, the difference between 78.51% haste and 68.75% haste is 45% attack speed, DW is higher at 56%

Using a 100 delay weapon for simplicity sake

2H = 0.78515625 (0.21484375)
DW = 0.8 (0.2)
Fencer = 0.6875 (0.3125)

100 * 0.21484375 = 21.484
100 * 0.20 = 20.0
100 * 0.3125 = 31.25

31.25/20 = Fencer is 56.25% slower then DW
31.25/21.484 = Fencer is 45.45% slower then 2H
21.484/20 = 2H is 7.4% slower the DW

Fencer didn't magically become amazing, it's always been this way and we've been talking about Fencer Savage as an option since Adoulin. The reason it's behind the others is due to its extremely slow attack speed and therefor WS rate.

Push comes to shove can always make a Fernagu.
If all you need is the comparative difference in attack speed, you can save yourself some steps and just do
Code
(old haste - new haste) / (new haste - 1)


(.6875 - .7851) / (.7851 - 1) = 0.4542
(.6875 - .8) / (.8 - 1) = 0.5625
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 Shiva.Flowen
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By Shiva.Flowen 2021-10-20 09:34:44
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Dridian42 said: »
My argument wasn't that fencer is slower but how it's effectiveness is increased due to the Ftp like Savage Blade. I do believe that the loss in JA Haste that 2 handed Wpns get with Hasso is nice but with Fencer and it's ability to hit 2k TP from 1k TP is more of the question. Since we're talking about 10% JA Haste as marking the difference in speed and effectively the frequency of Weapon Skills. Then we have to also consider the Weapon Skill Damage.

The amount of damage over time due to Savage Blade and a 2h WS. While finding which 2h WS is best to compete with, will determine the best outcome.

Haste alone isn't a good enough reason to abandon Fencer.

This is a bit of an over simplification. I agree there are many situations where fencer is a great choice and i've been an advocate of the builds since the ability was released. "2k from 1k TP" is an exaggeration (moonshade, and savagery for that matter, are useable with any build), and tp bonus offhand adds more TP bonus than fencer and will gain TP faster IF you have the right requirements/buffs. It is a big if and very often it is easier to fencer build, although easier might not mean better as often as you think owing to the slow swing rate, unless you are with a DNC. As others shared Doli is the obvious DW build candidate because it's one of the few that dont rely on the TP bonus and gain more from a nice offhand. RE Farsha i'm not sure there are many situation you would give up fencer, with the AM3 only effecting farsha swings, the tp bonus and crit rate.
 Carbuncle.Yiazmaat
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By Carbuncle.Yiazmaat 2021-10-20 10:20:50
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Finally made a War Fu solo video, in case someone is interested.
Fu start at 23

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By 2021-10-20 12:03:00
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By SimonSes 2021-10-20 13:04:08
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Dridian42 said: »
Shiva.Flowen said:
"2k from 1k TP" is an exaggeration

War 97 = 500 TP Bonus
Mater WAR has 730 TP bonus with 230 from Job Points. Add the Moonshade Earring for 250 TP bonus and then you'll get 980 TP bonus. Just simply having the Blurred Shield with Fencer+1 gives an additional 50 TP Bonus.

So, yes I'm sorry but it's not an exaggeration.

You forgot +2 neck. For total of +1080. Moonshade working for other builds doesn't mean it's not working for Fencer. You said 2k from 1k, not 1k advantage over other builds, so Flowen is clearly wrong. I would even say its 2k is understatement, since it's almost 2.1k

Asura.Saevel said: »
31.25/20 = Fencer is 56.25% slower then DW
Shiva.Flowen said: »
and tp bonus offhand adds more TP bonus than fencer and will gain TP faster IF you have the right requirements/buffs

Cool numbers Saevel, but tp gain =/= swing speed

Naegling has 75TP per hit
Naegling/Fernagu with 35%DW (/nin) is 58TP per hit
Naegling/Fernagu with 25%DW (/dnc with haste samba) is 62TP per hit

Naegling /DRG vs /Fernagu /NIN we have:
Naegling 240 delay * 0.3125 = 75 delay, so 1TP per delay
/Fernagu 508 delay * 0.2 = 103.18 delay, so 1.124TP per delay
So in reality DW has only 12.4% faster TP gain, but keep in mind you need to sacrifice 10%DA or 10sTP on cape for 10%DW (I dont think Emicho and Suppa are still bis over DW cape), so in reality this will be several % lower.

Naegling /DNC vs /Fernagu /DNC, both with self Haste S. we have:
Naegling 1.19TP per delay
/Fernagu 1.22TP per delay
So ONLY 2.5% faster TP gain and same thing like before, you need to sacrifice cape for DW. Which means Fencer has actually FASTER tp gain.

/Fernagu has 170 TP bonus advantage, which is around 5.5% higher Savage damage. That's almost entirely countered with Blurred shield +1.

Conclusion: When /DNC on both /Fernagu or Fencer, WS damage is almost the same, while Fencer has FASTER tp gain with Haste Samba.


Keep in mind I don't even touched the topic of accuracy with Fernagu, which is obviously terrible and in practice could result in further sacrifices in tp gear.
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By Starbucks 2021-10-20 16:25:27
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Can you tell me how you beat Fu? Can it be done without Monberaux or Ygnas?
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