Manslaughter For Failing To Warn Of Earthquake

The problem with the McDonald's lawsuit, is at the time there were many warnings already in place to indicate that the coffee was hot. "Hot Coffee" labels, as well as the use of cup rings to prevent burning to one's bare hand through the cup alone. Those rings were eventually removed and the cups remained the same, now without labels.

Europe: 6 years to these guys and a few months tops to people that stab other people.

it's all that really needs to be said:



I'm sorry that that doesn't satisfy you, but the general idea of holding scientists responsible for failing to predict a major earthquake is ludicrous, the circumstances of the area scream "scapegoat".

I'm not making emotional gut reactions, I'm taking the evidence that's presented to me and analyzing it, along with knowledge that I already poses: when the community of scientists disagree with something, it's best to listen to them.

In regards to the coffee: coffee is hot, the *** was stupid, the lawsuit was stupid, I don't care how hot it is, unless they labeled it as Ice Coffee and they gave her normal coffee (it's hot btw) then it was stupid.

I'm not stupid enough to put hot liquids between my legs, also I don't drink coffee (did for a bit, stopped).

I know I have almost nothing to offer to this thread other than "I don't agree that the scientists should be found guilty" on many reasons, but the McDonald's Lawsuit I did read through before (via wiki so I guess my source may be invalid, but they listed their sources) and still seems like that case is not the same.

McDonalds Hot Coffee Lawsuit

A good read, it was not about human error so much than coffee being too hot and punitive damages for McDonalds for being stubborn.

Anyways, back to work.

Italy.
Unfairly jailing Scientists for centuries.

If that's your definition of anything close to conclusive proof, then we really don't have anything to agree on, sorry.

If improbable was defined in any objective manner then you could make reasoned commentary on it, but it's not.

Um, it is...

im·prob·a·ble/imˈpräbəbəl/
Adjective:

Not likely to be true or to happen.

It's enough "proof" to realize that the scientists didn't say there wouldn't be a quake.


This ruling is an insult to the scientific community as a whole, and the citizens (if not the world) should be outraged at Italy's actions.

49% is improbable with a single alternative. It's not a very precise description.

1% can be probable with a million alternatives.

it doesn't need to be

It does if you want a convincing argument.

I disagree. If somebody asks a climatologist if they will be hit by lightning tomorrow, They'd say it's improbable (if the chance is 1% or 30% it's irrelevant), should they be able to sue them if they get hit and live?

What you're asserting is ludicrous.

They don't need to live, the family can sue if he doesn't.

On a serious note, you're now arguing something I haven't broached.

If the family did, they should be beaten with sticks for being idiots.

No, I'm arguing something based on the same premise you laid out.

No it's not, we're not even talking about the same people. I said a third party (The readers of the Daily Bugle) shouldn't deem themselves experts on a case simply by reading the gloss account of another third party (The Daily Bugle).

What you just said, is the injured party shouldn't sue the scientists because the scientists got it wrong.

They nor I need to be experts on a case, the details don't really matter as it's irrelevant past the point of the fact that they never 100% said there wouldn't be an earthquake.

It's strengthened by the fact that it's obvious it's a big black eye to the government and they could have really used a scapegoat, so it seems that they found themselves some, but the latter part is speculation, but probable.

309 people dead merits an investigation. If they were negligently wrong in their prediction, or they had a prediction that should have been reported and wasn't, they'd be at fault. None of this can be divined from the article.

Anyway I have nothing to add anymore, cheers it was fun.

yeah, an investigation into why the city's structures weren't upgraded when they live in a volatile region...

The buildings are old, the people are compacted in small areas, they're going to die in those conditions.

The problem in issuing early alarms or retrofitting antique/inadequate buildings to withstand catastrophic events such as earthquakes or eruptions boils down to the probability of such events occurring.

In Italy nobody would ever consider pushing for a preemptive approach because of the massive costs involved in its realization VS the actual chances of catastrophes occurring.

The evacuation plan for the areas that are potentially threatened by the Vesuvius (ranging from the nearest to the furthest area) has been under updating/examination because the "Great Risks" commission (the one that was accused of negligence and false statement for the quake catastrophe) couldn't come up with an agreement on the percentage value beyond which a state of warning/alarm/evacuation should be set into motion (likely 5%).

If scientists were to warn of an incoming disaster, civilians and local enforcements would have to endure the process of abandoning their homes and businesses. Considering the chance of, say, a catastrophic eruption actually occurring are somewhere around 5%, how many times would civilians be willing to abandon everything and go to the mattresses? How many times would institutions be willing to sustain the huge expenses involved in a mass emigration? Not many.

Yet again, the Vesuvius isn't even the scariest active volcano in Italy. The Campi Flegrei is a whole caldera of volcanoes above which a whole section of Naples was built. The catastrophe that would occur should it erupt is far greater than that of the Vesuvius because people have houses literally built inside craters. They just ignore the fact.

In the end, ***happens. It's good to try and prevent tragedies, but it's bad to point fingers at human beings when they happen.

I just think its nice to know that the USA isn't the only country blessed with judicial incompetence and scientific illiteracy.

Campi Flegrei, Vesuvius and the entire Naples Gulf are all connected as one big supervolcano, if one of them blows up, they all goes off, so basically half the region goes boom. Over 1 million people are in danger.

If any of that happens I'll die, I don't fool myself believing I'll escape in time.

I really don't understand where people get this notion that restoration is cheap. Do you have any idea how much something as simplistic as a steel eye beam costs? Redistributing the weight of an entire structure, and trying to account for the malleability to withstand something like a shift in fault lines is not an easy task.

Some of you are insinuating that the city is to blame, but where is Italy suppose to get the funding now? They're already treading water in the EU.

In the US, yeah, you can register your home with a historical society and receive grants for restoration provided you have documentation and of the home's lineage, but if it's a private business or residence guess who is paying for the bulk of that? If you said the mortgage holder, you are correct! Also, it's not as if European countries can hand out grants willy-nilly for every building built before 1920. Basically, you can walk block to block and know something historically significant happened at such and such location.

With state jobs, I'm assuming there is just as much red tape and bureaucratic BS that you have to deal with in the US as there are in Europe. (Maybe more so in the US since we have to accommodate for HUBs (Historically Underused Businesses) with state jobs.) Even an extension is a cluster-*** of relayed addenda...Customer ---> SE/ARCH ---> SE/MECHE ---> GC/MECHE ---> Subs/Suppliers ---> Laborers. One snag in the line, and it's law suit time! Counter suits! An extension on a public building can go straight into the mutli-millions, depending on what it is, without batting an eyelash.

Some of you are talking about a massive-scale reconstruction of an entire town near the Aegean fault line? Where's the money going to come from? Yes, newer structures will be equipped to handle the physical stress of a natural disaster like along the San Andreas.

I met a guy contracted out of Dallas who worked did the planning for a hotel near the Superdome in NOLA. You can make estimates about how much wind sheer a structure can take while doing your calculations, but you can't always anticipate the actual destructiveness of a hurricane. God! A tornado or the off-chance of the Colorado River flooding is the only x-factor we have to take into consideration.

It kind of astounds me that some of you take for granted how much work and money goes into the construction of a bank, school, or ***! Even a strip mall.

Not sure if I should direct Mosin's, Ashman's, or Schutz's attention to this thread or not.

The McDonald's Coffee case is not really comparable.

The temperature of the coffee served at that particular McDonalds was kept WELL ABOVE health code standards.

The only thing ridiculous about this case is the number of times people ignorantly cite it as a "frivolous lawsuit."


Is it ironic or coincidental that people who mention the lawsuit in this context, expressing tremendous ignorance, are typically asserting the idea that the foolishness of others shouldn't be rewarded?

Circle gets the Square!

Lye, I think you need to understand my point before you make snide remarks, because clearly you don't understand it. I never once said that these cases were analogous.

Actually, you've just erred on the mirror image of what my point was, which if anything strengthens it.

Well I can tell you this, they will be the last scientist to work for the Italian gov't in this way.

Oddly enough, volcanic eruptions are slightly easier to predict.

Especially in the case of Campi Flegrei and the Vesuvius, the type of magma (basaltic magma in this case is a very dense magma) and the depth at which it rests allow the researchers monitoring it to actually notice changes and estimate a countdown to an eruption (it literally can take days or weeks for the magma to squeeze through the rock layers and pop out. it won't go "Poof, you're dead.")

It's funny, but the first way they have to *** whether something is happening is through seismic monitoring. When magma starts flowing upwards it generates an increase in the micro seismic activity thats' being monitored 24/7 by the Osservatorio Vesuviano.

The issue with the evacuation plan does not generate from a lack of monitoring instruments or capability but from the ridiculous amount of steps and institutions that need to be addressed before actually ordering an evacuation to take place. The fact it's hard to assure an event will happen though raises the problem of false alarms causing massive losses on the economic scale and an increase in the lack of trust in the institutions.

It's pretty much like the fable of the kid that would always make fools of his towns' people by calling out a wolf sighting and ended up being eaten by the wolf the one time it actually showed up.

Sheelay or Seha, does the Italian government have a grant program for restoration of private residences or businesses?

(I knew that would be a TL;DR. :/)

As a means to preemptively update buildings? I don't think so.

Even if there were, it'd probably be such a messy system that neither private owners or companies would feel like relying on it to aquire some degree of protection.

Dude... narcissist much?

My post wasn't even directed at you! Furthermore, it supported the claim you were making on page 1.

I even +'d one of your posts.

Not even preemptively for a natural disaster. Just with private residences that have historical significance like Victorians, Colonials, etc. in the US? I know in Britain and Germany they have a classification system for estates and such that have a significant lineage but are not owned by the state.

Not sure about Europe, but in the US there are government grants for restoration but you have to keep the integrity of the house. Are grants like this available?