The Sealed Dagger: A Ninja Guide

I'm not writing a guide, it's not up to me to quantify anything. Do your own tests.

Downhill how? Be specific. I didn't make any personal criticisms. Everything I said was in reference to information from the guide being either inaccurate, supposition, or opinion/preference. Her invited us to review his work too. I even engaged in a discussion to understand the viewpoint and his response was "do what you want you're wrong". So I'm curious why you believe it went "downhill" from using the word "you".


It's an all-around great katana for an all around mid level job. It still loses to Hitaki by A LOT. There's nothing to change anyone's mind about. You can go back a few pages and read where I poopoo'd how much stronger Hitaki was vs Kunimitsu. It's pretty bad too, because a lot of us worked for the R30, but that doesn't change the fact that TP Bonus as a stat is broken for any WS where "Damage Varies With TP". This isn't opinion. This isn't "only with Savage Blade". Go outside of town and use Blade Ten or Zesho Meppo with any level of buffs, and Kunimitsu offhand. Then switch to Hitaki and repeat. You'll gain like 8-10k damage. That's simply the power of TP bonus gear affecting WS damage on linearly scaling TP based WS.

Kuni is still great for nuking and hybrids, and general purpose. If you're underbuffed with accuracy, it's fine too. My alternative is to just eat accuracy and use the Hitaki. There is no combination of buffs or gear that can beat Hitaki offhand for Zesho/Tem, unless you have some insane overflow of TP bonus, like crystal blessing/Warcry from a warrior, or intentionally holding TP. Then Hitaki is worthless to use. But in most cases in Ninja you're firing WS as soon as possible.

I'm not going to correct your math because there's a simpler way to help you understand the flaw in your reasoning.

Even if we assume your numbers are 100% correct (they're not), why wouldn't eating sushi and wearing more accuracy simply be the better answer in order to fully benefit from Hitaki's TP bonus? Just correct the accuracy deficiency and you have a way better boost to your WS damage. You yourself said you gained a ton of accuracy wearing Revelation set. If you are saying accuracy is Hitaki's issue, how isn't it improved by your newly improved accuracy? Your logic isn't following your own explanations.

I want you to understand something: white damage swings from an offhand on Ninja are literally a percentage of a percent of Ninja's full damage output. If WS damage on a parse is like 95% damage and white damage is 5%, your offhand contributed to like half a percentage of the total damage. It's completely insignificant. What matters on Ninja is how fast you can get to 1k and fire your WS. Kunimitsu offhand damage is a drop in a bucket when Hitaki adds no less than ~8k damage to your WS. This isn't sims. You can test this very easily on everything.

The you post was just to serve as a reminder and keep the discussion flowing.

I hardly use ten when I do play ninja but I can see hitaki being great for that. I generally only pull ninja out when I can make use of the elemental weapon skills especially when they skillchain together. I hesitate to make the prime although I want it. Same with the kupon I still have waiting.
But I love my daken.

Job still needs a buff
Stances definitely should not decay
Ninjitsu should scale with skill, correct me if I am wrong but I think it currently only adds accuracy?

If you mean nukes skill does have some impact on them for damage, for everything else bar migawari(which may be capped now anyway?) its all macc

https://www.ffxiah.com/forum/topic/56749/updated-ninjutsu-damage-formulae/

math might not be fun but it won't kill you.

just use KC offhand, it's cheap.

Buukki and Maletaru have the tact of drunk miners eager to find gold.

Someone gives guide writing a go, has got a different perspective on results from offhands, and a bit of difficulty articulating it fully.

The politeness you allude to is, "Well I didn't totally flame him, so I wasn't even being rude."

Criticism of the guide and Euve's way of thinking is fine, but you're both shitting all over his effort, Maletaru in particular has earned himself a temporary topic ban for excessive hostility.

This kinda stuff is why people don't wanna post on FFXIah and keep lurking.

Disagreements are fine, but not everyone who comes to the forum is really good with writing, and isn't in the same moods as the regulars.

To be fair, Euvedant, try to take any of the criticisms simply as feedback. Maybe add in some disclaimer footers to section like, "Common consensus is <feedback you received about that section>." There is some good logic here, and your guide does have some typos/not fully fleshed out sections still (For me it's still the typo on the Enmity section header reading, "Emnity."

I know it's frustrating to spend a load of your free time on trying to make a guide, to meet with pushback and disagreement, but don't give up! With a little polish, you could give us the best NIN guide on the market.

Anyway, EVERYONE keep the discussion and the feedback coming, just be cordial. Leave the passive aggressive banter and rules lawyering, "Well I wasn't really being an ***." at home, ok?

Wait, WHAT? With all due respect, you're totally out of line with your thinking here, and I take offense to this. I don't see any comments between mine and this, so I assume this comment is in response to what I recently posted, which was NOT in any way rude, disrespectful, or "shitting" in any sense. I haven't made a single comment about someone's ability to articulate anything, no clue what you're talking about. I haven't insulted the work they put into the guide at all. I actually said I appreciated the effort he put in. What "tact" are you referring to? How am I "shitting all over his effort"? Did I insult him a single time here?

The guy put out a guide to NIN and invited us to offer feedback. I noticed a few things that I thought were off and borderline supposition or just straight up false, and commented. Rather than discussing the actual points in detail (in a forum thread intended for discussion), his responses were literally:


(notice the particular passive-aggressive commentary here)


Making a guide does not make you immune to counter-points and suggestions. He even asked us to weight in on input. Even still, that's not what I was doing. You're treating Euvedant with some kind of kid gloves, as if I'm the bully that's peeing all over his science project. I haven't said a single thing that hasn't related to game mechanics or his explanation of how things don't make sense. So if actual players can't critique the work intended for newer players to learn from, who is invited to offer feedback? Unless I say "good boy" after every sentence?




...everything in my posts has been completely respectful, and has kept the discussion moving forward. Why am I being labelled an "***" and passive aggressive for challenging some of the points in this guide? SMH.

Have my points NOT kept the discussion moving forward with the actual topics in mind? If anything, THESE comments have broken up the discussion into making the audience believe there is some hidden beef or animosity here, when everything I said was completely on topic and cordial. I haven't insulted a single person here.


It's the exact same principle behind why

Atatkos/Sparrowhawk/Thibron is good for Savage Blade
Centovente is good for Rudra's/Ruthless
Ukaldi is good for Black Halo

It's literally "TP Bonus" +1000 is insane as a modifier for any WS that is "Damage Varies With TP". It's just way powerful. NIN's entire role is getting TP as quickly as possible to fire off WS. They aren't dealing incredible white damage, its all about WS damage in high volume in large numbers. So the next biggest thing is making WS hit for as high as possible on repeat. Holding TP for a larger value hurts their DPS in the long run because NIN gains next to nothing from white damage swings. So naturally, using a weapon that boosts their effective TP by 1000 skyrockets their primary source of damage. It really is that simple. Has nothing to do with Kunimitsu or Blade Ten or anything. It's just an extremely powerful modifier for their strongest WS, which also improve drastically in damage due to high tp.

Don't read too much into it Buukki

1000 tp bonus is nothing to sneeze at, if I am using that right
And I don't think I would expect to see incredible damage from ninja in a normal situation let alone white damage

Kunimitsu is absolute stat puke, and helps tp gain a lot while also improving various aspects of ninja that should honestly be baked in.

I feel like ideally ninja is a facilitator, a middle man if you will.

Katana, intentionally, is a great bridge set of weapon skills for massive skillchain potential but our current meta people would rather spam them try to coordinate.
Off topic:Continuing sc is like adding several ws to those that argue well I can just spam savage blade
You absolutely can, but there is always opportunities to do more.


It's not quite a great saboteur, magic burster, or dps but it's able to perform each ask but in our current content it's easier to bring a different job sadly.


Looking at MNK SAM NIN as a relational set of 3 with strengths and weaknesses makes this a little easier to believe

If MNK has the white damage
Sam has the weapon skill damage
What does Ninja have, or supposed to have?

We know it was not introduced with the intention of being a tank though it's been a fascinating run where it was successful.

NIN is the same role it has been for years, and I stated it in my previous post:


I disagree that you wouldn't expect to see incredible damage from a ninja in normal situations. I have beaten this horse for years, but for some reason, it's not sticking with people. NIN's DPS output is incredibly high, and it can take the place of most DDs in their class for most content. They have access to Hybrid WS, which, when geared for properly and applicable, is the most broken set of WS in the game. They can natively offhand a weapon for low delay, and if that one is your Hitaki, it boosts DPS by a ***ton. NIN gains TP incredibly fast, and they are able to just rip WS repeatedly.

I have done 8B as NIN previously, and it was still very respectable from a DPS perspective. Shadows are worthless, though.

The main strength of NIN is in their shadows. Utsusemi has been devalued because everything strips shadows, so NIN has fallen off in recent years (not from a DPS perspective). But in any situation where you can use Shadows effectively (i.e. Segments/Limbus) -- NIN is busted AF. It's a matter of where the game is right now, everything is heavy magical AOE, which NIN has a natural weakness to since shadows get stripped. If you can use Hybrid WS, NIN is busted.

The problem with NIN is, if those two conditions are not met with the content, NIN either has nothing unique to offer the group; they have to (1) ignore their shadows (defeating the purpose of their job), and (2) NIN's BEST PHYSICAL DAMAGE is Savage Blade, their non-native Weapon Type. This is not debateable. This clashes with other jobs like RDM BRD COR where there is a WS wall, plus it's stale and disappointing AF. This causes NIN to fall off heavily from the meta, because if it's best asset (shadows) cannot be utilized, and they are using a weapon that a buffer can use PLUS add buffs, why bother bringing one to Savage Blade when you can bring a COR or RDM? In 6-man content, the decision always falls down to: "who can deal the most damage, and who can give us buffs?" If someone is only dealing damage, it has to be top. If someone is only giving buffs, it has to be necessary. NIN fits no role in a standard 6-man party because other jobs do those two roles better (NIN can't buff anyone at all, actually, unless you consider Yagyu shadows a buff, but shadows have been devalued as I explained).

NIN can MB and Tank in auxiliary roles to a lesser degree, but nothing to the level that an actual nuker or tank can accomplish. I would put NIN's nuke potential on or at the level of RDM. Not great. NIN's tanking was elite back in abyssea-pre-post days, and even Halphas in original Dynamis-D Sandy. There just aren't many cases to use NIN for it's fundamental and unique traits. MBing fodder for high damage is "fun", just like tanking on NIN is "fun". Impractical, at best, though.


This is the silver lining that nobody mentions or cares about. Zesho Meppo can SC with Savage Blade I believe in both directions. This makes it a perfect WS to use for things where you want intentional or accidental SC, specifically in this month's ambuscade. Zesho Meppo is respectably strong and also self SCs, so in any case where you can benefit from SC, it's better than using Sword for Savage, even if your direct WS is weaker, the additional SC damage more than makes up for it (so long as it doesn't heal a Sortie boss).

I don't think NIN's DPS potential is in a bad place at all. It just is very annoying that Savage with Naegling is stronger than Zesho w/ Prime 4/5. THAT is the biggest frustration with NIN.

I absolutely agree with that. Provided that you can afford the acc loss (especially these days, more often than not you absolutely can).
But Jinxs said "best all around off hand" not "best dps off hand".
I can see how for some people those two things are one and the same and that's surely ok, but I'm confident Jinx meant something else.

And, supposing I got what he meant, I agree with him Kunimitsu is probably the best "all around" OH Katana for NIN.

In the grand timeline of Ninja guides, Buukki has only ever encouraged accuracy and truth in results. To paint him in a different light is a huge disservice. Do better.

Thanks for taking up the mantle of writing a new guide Euvedant. Guides are great. Keep working at it to make it the best you can. Be graceful with input, even if it's not what you want to hear.

Go ninjas!

for whatever reason, I'm using Ternion dagger offhand /shrug.

I know exactly what Jinxs meant, and I stated exactly his same statements almost 4 months ago in my frustration with the direction of how they implement NIN katanas, specifically the new Limbus one. I even spelled out both katanas on the same thing you said:

It's a respectably useful offhand, actually. Accuracy/Magic Accuracy, Evasion, AGI, TA, WSD, Subtle Blow, lower delay than Gleti's Knife. The guide in question doesn't mention it at all, but it's a pretty good offhand for starter NINs. Outclassed by Kunimitsu entirely, but still good.

Thanks for the guide. I dig the name and it's good to see people creating content for ninja.


Kunimitsu is really good but it suffers from "jack of all trades master of none" like Buuki said about ninja in general. I don't have s5 Dokoku so I use this weapon solo for self-skillchaining with katana (it's my most-used offhand for sure).

S-E should have gone in a particular direction with more ninja weapons, as they have for other jobs. Nagi has enmity only, for example. It is clearly meant as a tanking weapon and should have DTII on it, like PLD and RUN got on Burtgang and Epeolatry. Dokoku/Zesho Meppo is DEX/AGI, wish it were STR/DEX instead. And Kannagi, obvious there where they went wrong...

With all due respect Vyre, you are wrong and Buukki is right. To give Euvedant a pat on the back for a guide that's riddled with errors and bad advice while at the same time banning people and pointing fingers is peak comedy. Especially since you only are bothered by his spelling error of "emnity" and ignoring all the lies in his guide?

Need I remind you he shared his guide with the note of "let me know if I should implement any changes", got 1 reply, instantly went into his shell and proclaimed that he'll do things his way regardless of input (input he requested). Buukki has been respectful and patient to explain in detail how wrong his guide is and he gets a talking to like he's the weird one somehow?
(I don't even know Buukki but he's right and that's all that matters.)

PS: "This kinda stuff is why people don't wanna post on FFXIah and keep lurking."
it's your banning of innocent people and pointing fingers at people providing truth and facts that pulled me out of lurking and onto my keyboard btw, not them :)

Then I'm going to step in and say this then.

First of all, If a Moderator has specifically told people that they need to stop. You should be listening to to said moderator. It doesn't matter at that point if people are right or wrong. The point I'm explicitly going to make is that people have been asked to stop. So they should stop.

People not just in this thread, but in many other threads are writing essays for things that can be explained in a sentence or two. People's criticism’s are often unhelpful or negative, especially when what most people want is just a plain answer to their questions. This is the biggest reason for why a lot of people don't bother posting. If it isn't the AI slop, it's the long winded explanations and the just blatant rudeness.


We need more guides, we need more easy to access information that isn't gated behind reading 200+ pages of a forum. The guide is new, let the guide grow and get adjusted. We've had multiple guides over the years that are now sitting abandoned or scrapped. People choosing to take down peoples efforts to help others helps nobody, even if the effort itself isn't perfect.

People are returning to the game. The best thing the veteran players can be doing right now is making information palatable for everyone. Not everyone wants the nitty gritty detail. Some people just want sets.
A guides a guide, it isn't gospel. If it gives people a general direction of where they need to go, then as far as i'm concerned, it's fulfilling it's task.

PS:

I have always held to the idea of giving as much information as possible, because it is too easy to misinterpret someone's intentions when you read a sentence or two of text. It's the same reason why sending someone a text message can be vague compared to just calling them and telling the details. So I disagree with this perspective, especially in a Job-specific thread (maybe in a Random Question thread, a sentence or two will suffice). You DO need details. So I'm not sure what this point is in reference to (my posts are long on purpose).

If I just say "Hitaki is better than Kunimitsu", all that does is prolong further discussions. You get "but Kunimitsu is a better all-around katana". Then "NIN's role is to be a DD, and wearing Hitaki is better for DPS". etc etc. Now you have tons of unnecessary back and forths, and then it takes several posts to get to the answer of what can be explained in one. Just scroll up/back pages, I explained all of this months ago, and it came back right up not even 4 pages later.

A singular sentence doesn't always answer the question or address the problem, and now we've prolonged the discussion because we aren't providing more details. Also, if someone is simply not understanding the mechanics we are explaining to them, then what? Are we now policing how long people's responses are in a discussion? I'm not talking about rudeness or critically ripping apart someone's work. Someone who makes a guide makes it available for everyone to see, beginners, returnees, and veterans alike. If it has some incorrect statements, what is the appropriate way to help them fix the guide, without them getting upset about the feedback?

You have a guy who made a guide, asked for feedback, I attempted to be as helpful as possible and was completely informative from the beginning, and instead of having a discussion, I got passive aggression from him and him stating how "Wrong" I was, and then thrown into a bucket of "drunk, tactless miners" with veiled ban threats from a mod, because the guide wasn't praised left and right? This is weird energy from the mods right now, and I feel it is completely misplaced and inappropriate.

So with that being said, if this is the message you are sending in the Ninja thread, I'll tap out from now on. Yall be good.

Legendary FFXI NIN spitting truth here. And let's be real here, Buukki has absolutely been one of the best contributors here for years and has played a big role in the community of truly helpful players giving well intentioned advice that usually hits the mark. Sometimes he gets excited about stuff, and I've personally had plenty of differences of opinion, but I've always seen Buukki consistently coming at it from a place of making a legitimate effort to provide good information.

Now then...

From an offensive perspective, NIN has the earth/ice/water elements of the hybrid WS spectrum, as the only job in the game with effective darkness-side hybrid WS (SAM gets the light aligned ones, and RNG COR with the single element for Flaming Arrow/Hot Shot). It's NIN's most effective DPS approach when viable, and it's a unique niche that isn't fully shared by any other job.

Hey guess what? Sometimes Magic Accuracy really does matter for getting reliable hybrid damage. You know what has a good chunk of Magic Accuracy, along with WSD, MAB, SC Bonus, and even STP for some TP generation? Why yes, Kunimitsu!

All that helps hybrids significantly. TBH, the biggest "I wish they changed this" thing on Kunimitsu is that STR/INT instead of DEX/AGI would have been awesome to take even more advantage of hybrids!

Hitaki is no slouch for hybrid offhand either, but I do find the lack of macc to be more of a potential hindrance to its performance on hybrids, relative to the frequently discussed (and generally given too much importance) potential lack of physical acc if you're using Ten or ZMeppo or whatever.

NIN does have its other niches, whether the defensive tools of shadows, or the potential to do stuff like self SC and MBs (though I take some issue with that since it's just... a lot more work for NIN to get results versus something like mindlessly spamming Savage Blade). But the hybrid one is a true unique spot to me, with only SAM filling a really similar role but using different elements. And a reason that the superstar all-arounder offhand of Kunimitsu will always remain close at hand in my bag-o-blades that I lug around with my on all my journeys. Clanking around next to my other offhands like Yagyu Darkblade, Hitaki, Gokotai, Gleti's Knife...

You should be guiding a person into understanding when they can use tpbonus and when they shouldnt be.

Not a blanket either/or but when. And why.

This is why we have 4+ situational haste sets. No haste. Haste 1. Haste 2. Haste cap.

It's the exact same damn thing. when tpbonus is appropriate and when it isn't. There is not an always.

There definitely is an inflection point where the lack of accuracy from tp offhand makes tp gain too slow to let the extra ftp do its job. Just have to agree on a target and buffs ahead of time to calculate.

Eiryl is 100% right. The best guides help explain the logic behind the choice, so a player is equipped to understand why they might want to use one or the other and provide them the options.



I don't think you necessarily have to agree on a specific number. There's a bit of an art that you'll only learn by playing in situations that are actually applicable to YOU, and the targets you and your group fight, and the buffs you typically get, and the events you usually run.

It's not up for debate that if there are no accuracy concerns, physical dmg varies with TP WS are going to get the most benefit from Hitaki. But it sometimes frustrates people that there's not a guaranteed right answer for what is "enough" accuracy to continue supporting Hitaki, and when there's enough of a lack of accuracy that Kunimitsu meets or exceeds Hitaki's performance.

well you have to parse your fights and make adjustments, just how it goes.

IMO if someone is making a "guide" they should probably say up front for whom the guide is for.

Everyone? Hardcores? Starting players?

Most guides have historically had sets at every tier, starting, mid, high end, you're not getting this unless you win rank1 bonanza (Hi Dane).

It's fine for a guide to say "IMO this weapon is the best offhand in most circumstances a new/bleeding edge/whatever player may encounter".

They should also note which circumstances this does not apply in.

Also IMO it's why most guides are not that useful. By attempting to appeal to everyone, they don't really appeal to anyone at all. XI is not a game for cookie cutter setups.

So yes, will have a lot of "feedback" if something is called a guide. Because a lot of people will disagree with the opinions in that guide.

Make a page on bg-wiki, make it a community guide, then everyone can fight over contributions over there. Job done.

Until a contributor decides to take their ball contributions with them and delete everything on their way out.

Respectfully, the mods do a good job. Vyre is great, but made what seems like a bit of a mistake or overcorrection by lumping Buukki in as some sort of rude agitator. That's fine, we all make mistakes.

If anything, Buukki had helped steer the conversation BACK to one that was being respectful and calm, focused on the substance of the gear questions, and avoiding any personal insults or name calling.

Buukki didn't do anything that seems to warrant catching strays from a mod comparing him to a "drunk miner" or saying he's "shitting all over [the guide writer's] effort". If anything, Buukki was doing more than anyone else in this thread to offer constructive feedback that seems nothing if not intended to provide HELP to the guide writer to improve the guide, in response to the author's REQUEST TO THIS FORUM seeking input on whether to implement any changes.

Seriously, tell me how this is rude? It's an informative, practical, and objective take.

I did do some changes based on feedback and I did the math calculating tp gain dokoku+kunimitsu. Dokoku+hitaki. dokoku- delay 210= tp/hit 68.33. kunimitsu delay 227= tp/hit 72.49. hitaki- delay 216 tp/hit 69.8. and calculated with only tp gear equipped (no sams roll) which is 73stp vs 68stp (adding the stp kunimitsu). anyways there's the values, if you want to check for yourself. I'll admit I was wrong, Hitaki starts falling off in the 77% acc range (not 85%)Its not just the additional damage from autoattacks but also the added tp from hitting the target. Missing 90% would result in one extra attackround. I did my testing on locus ghost crabs (Eva 1310-1372) in bibiki bay. at 1515acc from my gearset. I was getting a 75% hit ratio. numbers climbed up a ton to 95% after adding 1600+. I was only able to reach the accuracy requirement with dokoku katanaskill +269-277 to bring hitaki up, Naegling doesn't contribute that bonus, which Naegling+Hitaki gave me a 1465acc .I'll make the changes on the guide and write that in there. Like kaffy said, parse your fights and make adjustments.