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The Sealed Dagger: A Ninja Guide
Phoenix.Capuchin
Serveur: Phoenix
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3628
By Phoenix.Capuchin 2024-05-06 18:27:02
tp bonus is just as good for hybrids as it is for savage or ten. if you're happy with those numbers cool, but they go a lot higher.
i will amend that to say though that with aeonic it might be overkill if you're stuck holding tp for any reason.
Yeah, I have generally had better results in practice with Heishi/Kunimitsu as opposed to Heishi/Hitaki. The TP Bonus does add some damage, but katana hybrids are no Savage Blade in that respect: Chi and Teki have fTP mods of 0.5/1.375/2.25, Blade: To is 0.5/1.5/2.5. Big difference from Savage Blade's 4.0/10.25/13.75, so more TP Bonus is certainly not "just as good" for hybrids as it is for Savage.
Considering you're already WSing in a minimum of +750 effective TP if using Heishi and a Moonshade earring, as a practical matter you WILL waste a whole lot of TP if also using an offhand TP Bonus +1000. Even just getting a triple attack proc can easily push you above 1250tp and cause some of that TP to be wasted.
Kunimitsu's no slouch either, tons of great stats for hybrids: WSD+5%, lot of attack, MAB/Macc/Mdmg. And of course, STP+5 and a lot of Acc for TP purposes, versus non-ilevel offhand that can become a liability on harder targets.
I just haven't found Hitaki worth it for hybrids most of the time. Was a bit better for me with Nagi mainhand, since that means 500 less TP Bonus and less likelihood of inadvertently going over on TP, but even then I think I've settled into preferring Kunimitsu.
Now, Savage Blade is a different animal, so Naegling/Hitaki is pretty good and that's my go-to if no accuracy concerns. But that's really the clear best use case for Hitaki.
Blade: Ten has similarly strong fTP mods as Savage, so Hitaki is pretty strong for that too - but again, there is a significant risk of overkill on TP when you're adding 1500-1750 TP Bonus to each WS. That leads me to tend to go Kunimitsu for Ten as well.
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By K123 2024-05-07 03:38:23
tp bonus is just as good for hybrids as it is for savage or ten. if you're happy with those numbers cool, but they go a lot higher.
i will amend that to say though that with aeonic it might be overkill if you're stuck holding tp for any reason. I'm sure they go higher with actual buffers and not just trusts. Alas, I am using 5 trusts only.
By jubes 2024-05-07 04:06:43
seems i'm misremembering, tried to emulate your gear and buffs (used +0 chaos/fighters) and did come out almost exactly at 30k avg. i do remember multi-hit procs hitting closer to 50-60k though, guess it was less often than i thought.
By Kadokawa 2024-05-07 04:16:29
You have to remember that these Hybrid WS are mostly used on Monster that weak to the WS element, and that not calculated by the Emulator.
By K123 2024-05-07 07:12:40
My gear is a bit different to that but realised I didn't have mantle and dingir ring in. My aeonic is R1, no o sash, dex with wsd , but I'm averaging much higher than that on apex bats now
By SimonSes 2024-05-07 09:04:49
Chi and Teki have fTP mods of 0.5/1.375/2.25, Blade: To is 0.5/1.5/2.5. Big difference from Savage Blade's 4.0/10.25/13.75, so more TP Bonus is certainly not "just as good" for hybrids as it is for Savage.
What you have posted means that TP bonus is BETTER for hybrids than for Savage.
For :Chi and :Teki it's +275% damage from 1000TP to 2000TP and +63% damage from 2000TP to 3000TP. :To scales even better.
Now Savage is +256% from 1000TP to 2000TP and "only" +34% from 2000TP to 3000TP.
Hitaki is only decent and not "omg the best" for hybrids, not because TP bonus works worse for it, but more because that Heishi has 500TP Bonus and Kunimitsu has mab/macc etc. which has much bigger impact for hybrid than for Savage. Hitaki is still bis for Hybrids assuming it doesn't uncap your macc and acc.
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By Godfry 2024-05-07 11:13:23
Now Savage is +256% from 1000TP to 2000TP and "only" +34% from 2000TP to 3000TP.
OH ***... Simonses is back. Now we are saved from the con-artists and their pseudo-knowledge.
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By SimonSes 2024-05-07 15:46:13
Now Savage is +256% from 1000TP to 2000TP and "only" +34% from 2000TP to 3000TP.
OH ***... Simonses is back. Now we are saved from the con-artists and their pseudo-knowledge.
I couldn't resist to nitpick that, but I'm generally still on hiatus (playing Predecessor almost exclusively) with no intention of coming back anytime soon.
By Yurks 2024-05-31 20:58:05
I have Heishi/Kuni (not wasting RP on this any time soon) and R25 Nyame. Only Chi was doing good damage vs crabs, maybe 30k average while SB was 20k average. Don't think I will make TP bonus offhand any time soon, just decided to ML it to 20 because my MNK is at 32 and it is slow as hell to ML after that solo.
I did up to 15 on crabs in Dho Gates, not sure where I wanna do 15-20 but I think Bibiki Bay would be too hard.
KRT bats melt vs. hybrid ws. Bats also have much smaller spawn areas making it faster to get chains. I was able to hit 40k pretty regularly, spiking up to about 86k on those. Fun stuff for NIN.
Serveur: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 491
By Asura.Clintbeastwood 2024-06-11 16:10:16
Sorry in advance if this was super obvious and I missed it.
Do Daken procs give the same TP as a normal melee hit?
Carbuncle.Maletaru
Serveur: Carbuncle
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2676
By Carbuncle.Maletaru 2024-06-11 16:35:48
Asura.Clintbeastwood said: »Sorry in advance if this was super obvious and I missed it.
Do Daken procs give the same TP as a normal melee hit?
They give the same TP as a normal ranged hit, but yeah there's no reduction AFAIK. It will depend on STP on your gear, spells, rolls, traits, etc. but if you throw a shuriken you should get a good idea what it's worth. I'd say 50~100 but I haven't tested it recently. It's pretty significant if you've got it proccing every round and have the racc to hit it.
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Serveur: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 491
By Asura.Clintbeastwood 2024-06-11 17:25:52
Carbuncle.Maletaru said: »but if you throw a shuriken
I must be losing it. The thought of just throwing a shuriken as a /ra never even crossed my mind lol.... Thanks Male!
I want to build a 100% Daken set and see how it compares to standard/risky TP sets.
Thanks!
By Nariont 2024-06-11 17:34:20
It means using relic body with its nice chunk of dw and af gloves which doesnt offer much of anything aside from daken.
Carbuncle.Maletaru
Serveur: Carbuncle
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2676
By Carbuncle.Maletaru 2024-06-11 17:35:10
Asura.Clintbeastwood said: »Carbuncle.Maletaru said: »but if you throw a shuriken
I must be losing it. The thought of just throwing a shuriken as a /ra never even crossed my mind lol.... Thanks Male!
I want to build a 100% Daken set and see how it compares to standard/risky TP sets.
Thanks!
NP. It's not hard to make a Dakken 100% set btw, Kunimitsu (with augs), JSE neck, AF hands, relic body, done.
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Serveur: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 491
By Asura.Clintbeastwood 2024-06-11 17:36:23
Carbuncle.Maletaru said: »Asura.Clintbeastwood said: »Carbuncle.Maletaru said: »but if you throw a shuriken
I must be losing it. The thought of just throwing a shuriken as a /ra never even crossed my mind lol.... Thanks Male!
I want to build a 100% Daken set and see how it compares to standard/risky TP sets.
Thanks!
NP. It's not hard to make a Dakken 100% set btw, Kunimitsu (with augs), JSE neck, AF hands, relic body, done.
That's why I wanted to try, looked easy to build and I'd "only" be sacrificing adhemar hands and tatenashi body to do it.
Asura.Saevel
Serveur: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 9933
By Asura.Saevel 2024-06-11 17:41:01
Asura.Clintbeastwood said: »Do Daken procs give the same TP as a normal melee hit?
It gives the TP of a shuriken attack. So whatever the delay of those stars are.
Serveur: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 491
By Asura.Clintbeastwood 2024-06-11 17:42:38
Asura.Clintbeastwood said: »Do Daken procs give the same TP as a normal melee hit?
It gives the TP of a shuriken attack. So whatever the delay of those stars are.
Seki Shuriken actually has a higher delay than Kannagi and Kunimitsu, so that means higher TP return from daken procs than melee swings?
Carbuncle.Maletaru
Serveur: Carbuncle
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2676
By Carbuncle.Maletaru 2024-06-11 17:57:45
Asura.Clintbeastwood said: »Asura.Clintbeastwood said: »Do Daken procs give the same TP as a normal melee hit?
It gives the TP of a shuriken attack. So whatever the delay of those stars are.
Seki Shuriken actually has a higher delay than Kannagi and Kunimitsu, so that means higher TP return from daken procs than melee swings?
Seki Shuriken has 192 delay, Kannagi has 210 and Kunimitsu has 227. Are you sure you're alright? Lol.
Also please don't use Kannagi, it's terrible.
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Serveur: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 491
By Asura.Clintbeastwood 2024-06-11 18:08:22
Carbuncle.Maletaru said: »Asura.Clintbeastwood said: »Asura.Clintbeastwood said: »Do Daken procs give the same TP as a normal melee hit?
It gives the TP of a shuriken attack. So whatever the delay of those stars are.
Seki Shuriken actually has a higher delay than Kannagi and Kunimitsu, so that means higher TP return from daken procs than melee swings?
Seki Shuriken has 192 delay, Kannagi has 210 and Kunimitsu has 227. Are you sure you're alright? Lol.
Also please don't use Kannagi, it's terrible.
lol I must be tired, was looking at DMG instead of delay.....
Serveur: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 491
By Asura.Clintbeastwood 2024-06-11 18:09:10
Carbuncle.Maletaru said: »Also please don't use Kannagi, it's terrible.
I know, but gdamnit I wish it felt like using Twash on THF ;;;;;;;;;;;
It's still a dope lockstyle though >.>
Asura.Saevel
Serveur: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 9933
By Asura.Saevel 2024-06-11 18:58:49
Asura.Clintbeastwood said: »Carbuncle.Maletaru said: »Asura.Clintbeastwood said: »Asura.Clintbeastwood said: »Do Daken procs give the same TP as a normal melee hit?
It gives the TP of a shuriken attack. So whatever the delay of those stars are.
Seki Shuriken actually has a higher delay than Kannagi and Kunimitsu, so that means higher TP return from daken procs than melee swings?
Seki Shuriken has 192 delay, Kannagi has 210 and Kunimitsu has 227. Are you sure you're alright? Lol.
Also please don't use Kannagi, it's terrible.
lol I must be tired, was looking at DMG instead of delay.....
Seki would give 63 TP per throw, multiplied by Store TP. Ninja can get ridiculous Daken rates and it's proc is completely independent of other multi-attacks. Think of it as free TP.
Serveur: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 491
By Asura.Clintbeastwood 2024-06-11 19:03:55
Asura.Clintbeastwood said: »Carbuncle.Maletaru said: »Asura.Clintbeastwood said: »Asura.Clintbeastwood said: »Do Daken procs give the same TP as a normal melee hit?
It gives the TP of a shuriken attack. So whatever the delay of those stars are.
Seki Shuriken actually has a higher delay than Kannagi and Kunimitsu, so that means higher TP return from daken procs than melee swings?
Seki Shuriken has 192 delay, Kannagi has 210 and Kunimitsu has 227. Are you sure you're alright? Lol.
Also please don't use Kannagi, it's terrible.
lol I must be tired, was looking at DMG instead of delay.....
Seki would give 63 TP per throw, multiplied by Store TP. Ninja can get ridiculous Daken rates and it's proc is completely independent of other multi-attacks. Think of it as free TP.
The question is, is chasing 100% daken worth giving up STP/MA in 2 other slots though?
Asura.Saevel
Serveur: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 9933
By Asura.Saevel 2024-06-11 19:13:58
Asura.Clintbeastwood said: »Asura.Clintbeastwood said: »Carbuncle.Maletaru said: »Asura.Clintbeastwood said: »Asura.Clintbeastwood said: »Do Daken procs give the same TP as a normal melee hit?
It gives the TP of a shuriken attack. So whatever the delay of those stars are.
Seki Shuriken actually has a higher delay than Kannagi and Kunimitsu, so that means higher TP return from daken procs than melee swings?
Seki Shuriken has 192 delay, Kannagi has 210 and Kunimitsu has 227. Are you sure you're alright? Lol.
Also please don't use Kannagi, it's terrible.
lol I must be tired, was looking at DMG instead of delay.....
Seki would give 63 TP per throw, multiplied by Store TP. Ninja can get ridiculous Daken rates and it's proc is completely independent of other multi-attacks. Think of it as free TP.
The question is, is chasing 100% daken worth giving up STP/MA in 2 other slots though?
The body and hands generally aren't worth giving up in most situations. Base + neck is 79% and that's usually good enough.
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Serveur: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 491
By Asura.Clintbeastwood 2024-06-11 19:28:05
Asura.Clintbeastwood said: »Asura.Clintbeastwood said: »Carbuncle.Maletaru said: »Asura.Clintbeastwood said: »Asura.Clintbeastwood said: »Do Daken procs give the same TP as a normal melee hit?
It gives the TP of a shuriken attack. So whatever the delay of those stars are.
Seki Shuriken actually has a higher delay than Kannagi and Kunimitsu, so that means higher TP return from daken procs than melee swings?
Seki Shuriken has 192 delay, Kannagi has 210 and Kunimitsu has 227. Are you sure you're alright? Lol.
Also please don't use Kannagi, it's terrible.
lol I must be tired, was looking at DMG instead of delay.....
Seki would give 63 TP per throw, multiplied by Store TP. Ninja can get ridiculous Daken rates and it's proc is completely independent of other multi-attacks. Think of it as free TP.
The question is, is chasing 100% daken worth giving up STP/MA in 2 other slots though?
The body and hands generally aren't worth giving up in most situations. Base + neck is 79% and that's usually good enough.
That's what I intend to find out! I'd like to see actual numbers ideally, but I'll "feel" it out nonetheless to see if I can spam hybrids with heishi faster or not.
By Nariont 2024-06-11 20:59:11
Frankly wouldnt go beyond aug'd kunimitsu for additional daken, the body is... okay if you need a dw swap but thats not a common nin concern.
Maybe if you couldnt overcap DW but its basically in the same spot as emp+2/3 hat, da boost mixed with dt/acc/atk is nice buuut 7 DW
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Serveur: Valefor
Game: FFXI
Posts: 19647
By Valefor.Prothescar 2024-06-11 21:17:58
Carbuncle.Maletaru said: »Asura.Clintbeastwood said: »Asura.Clintbeastwood said: »Do Daken procs give the same TP as a normal melee hit?
It gives the TP of a shuriken attack. So whatever the delay of those stars are.
Seki Shuriken actually has a higher delay than Kannagi and Kunimitsu, so that means higher TP return from daken procs than melee swings?
Seki Shuriken has 192 delay, Kannagi has 210 and Kunimitsu has 227. Are you sure you're alright? Lol.
Also please don't use Kannagi, it's terrible.
He technically isn't wrong anyway. The Katana's delays are both reduced by Dual Wield, shuriken delay is not.
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By K123 2024-06-12 17:38:49
Is there any way to make Blade Shun even 75% of Savage/Chi?
By Nariont 2024-06-12 18:31:55
Shun has a hard enough time trying to compete with ten in a high buff scenerio, let alone hybrids
Its atk varies so at some point only way it goes higher is pdl/ma. Not only is hybrids dmg varies but they double dip in wsd, can be boosted by affinity, mdef down/element down debuffs, natural mob ele wraknesses etc.
Its an uphill battle for shun, but atleast its not blade hi
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Phoenix.Capuchin
Serveur: Phoenix
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3628
By Phoenix.Capuchin 2024-06-12 23:44:22
Is there any way to make Blade Shun even 75% of Savage/Chi?
The one thing you have going for you with Shun is that it can be pretty useful for skillchains. In a party with a bunch of Savage Blade users and hybrids aren't effective? Heishi with Shun can open or close Light with all those Savages, and that can make Shun worth using over the higher raw damage of Ten (or Savage). You can even Radiance if for some reason you want to bother spending 3k TP for aftermath. Can also be worth it for the sword bros to tack on a double light with Savage->Shun->CdC.
But yeah, my usual mental flowchart for Heishi:
1) Do hybrids work? Use Chi (default), To (for stuff that resists earth), or Teki (in the rare chance water damage is best)
2) Hybrids bad, but physical/slashing damage is OK (and you don't feel like swapping to Naegling)?
(a) If you have solid buffs and don't care much about SC damage, use Blade: Ten
(b) If you have crappy buffs OR you can use Shun for SCs, use Blade: Shun
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