The Sealed Dagger: A Ninja Guide

I am forever angered that the smithing guild of vanadiel could make abrasion bolt heads etc, but couldn't figure out how to do that to shurikens.

<PRIME> <Shuriken> <Where?>

Sorry, you used Sange and threw it. All gone now, no replacements.

that might be the real reason why they never made one hahahahaha

Need to /rng and scavange up another one like cor with the bullet....

Any Dokoku owners that can speak to their experience with the katana? Happy with it?

I know there was the one person in the Prime Weapon discussion thread saying their initial reaction to the stage was meh 3 but wondering if anyone has brought it all the way.

I mean, everything seems to be known, so you can judge it yourself. There is not huge difference between stage 3 and 5. 10 DEX/AGI, 5 sTP, some acc and att, 14 base damage is probably overall less than 10% increase in damage. ODT on one hand with only first hit is also not really significant. You can maybe imagine 15% overall performance boost to stage 3 and that will be your stage 5.

Anyone know of a more up-to-date guide that includes Empy +2/3? Trying to figure acc and tp sets.

https://www.ffxiah.com/forum/topic/56125/using-python3-to-estimate-bis-gear-sets-for-ninja/

has some gearsets and a simulator you can play with to tailor your own sets.

This is what I'm needing, thank you very much ^^

My mule has it stage 5 its not going to do higher WS numbers then naegling savage but its pretty good. It can has much better acc / sc options compared to naegling and better tp speed. Naegling also won't help you self skillchain and the prime actually allows you to self / party skillchain very well.

So if nin is your main I would say its worth making but I don't think stage 5 prime will change the meta (not that nin is bad or anything).

Pretty new to NIN. But just wondered where Kannagi sits in the hierarchy with Naegling. I saw Logicals video where he compares all NIN rema weapons. In that Kannagi kind of came somewhere in the middle, each weapon having their own situational pros. But Naegling wasn't covered, and I was disappointed to learn that Savage Blade spam is still NINs most powerful physical WS. I already have a WAR that can do that, so am I wasting my time?

I intend to use NIN mainly in lowmman trust situations. Farming sortie solo etc. I want to self SC and MB, that's what I started NIN for. I chose Kannagi cos I not done an Empy yet, just fancied something a touch different. So will fully auged Kannagi out dps a Naegling if I'm using it correctly with self MBing.

Kannagi doesn't come anywhere close to beating Savage Blade with Naegling. Sadly, it's still the top DPS option for ninja when considering physically WS. With that being said, please don't let that stop you from having fun and playing ninja. It's incredibly satisfying to self SC+MB without taking as much as a scratch and flipping all over the screen. As just mentioned, Naegling does not self SC, so your best solo damage will still be with a katana (likely a hybrid or multi step). Iirc, Heishi is still going to be your highest performing katana before attempting prime. Not sure where it sits after that. But whatever, katanas are fun and that's why you play ninja. Even kikoku is a cute little kunai relic that has an easy spammable 2-step darkness. Same with Kannagi. It has interesting perks and some limited ambuscade uses, but it's not the superior katana. But it looks awesome as a lockstyle, and looking cool.

Kannagi is alas pretty close to the bottom?
Aside from very few situations (the Corse ambuscade comes to mind) even the Ambuscade Katana likely produces higher DPS than Kannagi.
You can check the numbers yourself using the tool by Izanami or the DPS spreadsheet.

Leaving prime away for obvious reason, hierarchy is approximately like this

1) Naegling
2) Heishi Shorinken (can get on top against targets where Hybrids are good)
3) Kikoku
4) Gokotai
5) Nagi
5) Kannagi

Kikoku and gokotai are pretty close. I put Kikoku above but they might be on par. Kikoku imho edges out Gokotai in lowmen setups especially if you're solo SCing.
I also put Nagi and Kannagi on the same spot but if you ask me I think Nagi is inferior DPS to Kannagi.
ALTOUGH Nagi is unique in what it offers and can situationally produce higher DPS thanks to AM3. Thing is... AM3 often is not "free" so the "sacrifice" you have to make to activate it, might reduce DPS so much that it becomes a loss. This doesn't apply to short fights where you can get TP before engaging.

Left out of the picture are the Divergence Weapons, Fudo Masamune.

C: it's very good for tanking, but so is Nagi, and NIN not exactly the best tank around, depends what we're talking about.

B: It's unique for the SBII that allows you to reach the 75% SB1+2 cap. It also is a mini mythic AM3, weaker but without the requisite of using a bad WS at 3k to activate it, it's always up.

A: It's a mini-empyrean but the effect, while weaker, is always active and doesn't require an aftermath. It has higher base damage, not bound to a meh WS and much cheaper/faster to obtain.


So if we're talking about DPS where do Fudo Masamune A or B stand in that list? Somewhere in the middle probably.

In general I'd say that the difference between Katanas is not really huge, with Heishi Shorinken maybe standing above the others.
The relevance of all these options which would arguably all be viable in a different situation, is killed by the fact that Naegling is go good it makes it depressing to use anything else if your only purpose is pure DPS.


JM2C of course.

Id say aeonic for its just general use aspect/am to improve sc/mb dmg would be the way to go, that or kikou as its got a good reliable ws with good properties as well.

Main hand Aeonic and offhand Kunimitsu works well for most things.

Thanks for the replies guys.

So even MBing with decent gear, Naegling still outstrips Kannagi overall? That's really depressing.

finished kannagi just today in fact, was able to get 25-30k blade: hi (with a cor and geo, mind you) on locus camelopards in bibiki, and you can 4 step chi > retsu > hi > hi to kill most any apex/locus.

have fun with the job, and if you go kannagi, try out a crit heavy build with kendatsuba, lehko's ring, odr earring, yetshila etc. quite fun seeing 7k+ attack rounds on ninja. in the situations you described, lowman with trusts, any katana sc + mb should beat naegling if the mob has enough health.

Unless your ws numbers are really low compared to your nuke numbers thats generally how it goes. The time you spent hitting that mb is 1 or more WS that could have been done + all the white dmg in between.

With naegling what you're really competing against is ws+sc dmg. SB spam is strong but it wont chain off itself so you can bridge the gap that way, but kannagi isnt what id use to do that

true, if you intend to maximize sc + mb at the expense of other dps gokotai + kunimitsu is probably what you want.

It depends on a few things. If you're soloing without real buffs, savage Blade is going to produce weaker dps and kill speed than self SC+mb. Savage Blade really shines when you have decent attack buffs to really push damage you absurd levels; without it, your SC and MB damage would normally come out ahead. You specifically mentioned lowman situations like Sortie where you're getting trust buffs, so Savage Blade isn't going to particularly destroy Kannagi Hi>Hi>MB numbers. But then again, making a complete empyrean for that specific purpose seems like a waste of resources imo. I'd just make kikoku and accomplish the same thing

Gokotai that high is insane to me, as is Nagi being that low (by far the most underrated katana). That is so obviously inconsistent with my actual experience having all of those options (R15 for all REMA) that I think there might be errors in the model/formula/assumptions if you're basing that on a calculator or spreadsheet.

I tend to default to Heishi/Kunimitsu and use hybrids if viable. Basically, if you have Nyame R15+ and decent non-trust buffs, and mobs don't resist your available elements, hybrids should be your best damage. That's most of Sheol (and if you get a particular family that's strong to hybrids, can either switch weapon or just switch WS to Blade: Ten).

Nagi is practically on par with Heishi for hybrids, particularly since Mythic AM3 procs work on WS and will result in high numbers.
- Nagi works particularly well with Malignance as a TP set (good synergy between Mythic AM3 and heavy STP set), so I like to use Nagi when I'm expecting to take damage and might also want to hold some hate.
- The enmity+ is a consideration when using hybrids too, as they generate less hate than a physical WS (enmity being calculated before MAB multipliers) - for instance, when I'm using Heishi in Sheol C and spamming Chi/To/Teki, it's not uncommon that a mob might just take off after a healer or BRD, so the extra enmity and similar DPS to Heishi makes Nagi kind of appealing for that reason.
- If not attack capped, Blade: Kamu with Nagi is actually pretty good thanks to its innate atk +125%/def-25% modifiers (roughly equivalent to a 3.0 attack multiplier). So on high defense mobs or if you're not running with full buffs/debuffs, don't sleep on Kamu. However, it really needs the Nagi augments (and Mythic AM3) to do well, Kamu sucks on other weapons due to lacking those things.
- Nagi can also be nice for situations where you want frequent self multi-steps just due to the rapid TP generation (i.e., Apex mobs with trusts). Can be a little more forgiving if you aren't confident you can keep TP up for a long multi-step.

Kikoku is good for physical, but lower WS damage than Savage Blade spam. However, Metsu has much better SC properties so if you're able to SC you may prefer Kikoku to Naegling. It's a fairly safe choice for physical DPS though, and has lower accuracy requirements than swapping to a sword. Oh, and I view R15 as mandatory on Kikoku - the Metsu augments are incredibly important, at R0 Kikoku will lag far behind.

Naegling is best for max WS damage, especially if paired with Hitaki (TP Bonus +1000) offhand and spamming Savage at 1000-1250TP. However, the downsides are that both the lower sword skill and the offhand non-ilevel weapon will require accuracy that you may not have on difficult mobs (for example, it's great on wave 1-2 Dynamis, but drops off significantly on wave 3). It's also bad for SC purposes, prob the worst option of viable endgame mainhands in that regard.

Kannagi shines the most when you're not getting great buffs, in which case a crit-heavy TP build is pretty good. Need to gear a little differently, I use Gleti's Knife offhand and a mix of Kendatsuba/Mpaca gear is good for TP, you'll want to use Blade: Hi so consider the SC implications of favoring that WS. I basically use this when for some reason I want to favor a crit TP set. It's not BAD per se, but I'd suggest making a Kikoku first if you want a solo-able REMA (and Heishi if Aeonic is available to you). Niche toy.


Absolutely the opposite, in my own experience, in nearly any situation.


Fudo Masamune C is generally the best pure tanking weapon. Yonin up and casting shadows generates tons of hate. However, your offense will take a serious hit, so this is one to use only when you are prioritizing tanking/enmity over all else. Halphas is a good example. So's something like blink tanking Excalibur in this month's Fomor Ambuscade (if you don't have Nagi, which also works well for that and has higher DPS potential).

Fudo B is kind of crap (I have a r25). More hits = feeding more TP so it dilutes the benefit of capping SBII. You gain TP well, but you're going to be stuck with bad WS and FUA doesn't proc on WS (whereas Mythic does). For low TP-feed situations, I can't think of many scenarios where other jobs don't fill the DD role better: MNK being king (capped SB, Penance, strong damage), DRK DRG being good options (SB 70+, DRK more slashing damage and DRG a great piercing option), etc.
Your criticism of a "bad WS" for Nagi is misplaced in this comparison, since Kamu really isn't that bad IF you're using Nagi due to the associated WS boost. And you only HAVE to use Kamu occasionally to get AM3 up, then you'll want to focus on hybrids or SCs with other WS (though I do sometimes do a Kamu without needing AM3 in situations like popping off a Kamu>Shun to open a light SC, or a multi-step)

Fudo A is also kind of crap. Worse white damage than Kannagi, better TP gain thanks to STP aug but worse WS with which to take advantage of that TP. I can't think of any situation where Kikoku or Naegling or Kannagi don't beat it, waste of money IMO and clearly below any of the REMAs.


Gokotai results in weaker WS and SC than other weapons, somewhat stronger nuke (MBing off a weaker SC though). You would have to have an absolutely first rate MB set, minimal resists, and the ability to do multiple MBs (like two bursts per SC) to even compete, and there's just so much margin for error. This is almost never viable in a party setting with any other DDs WSing, would really only be something for like a solo situation where you are self SCing and tacking on MBx2. Much more consistent to just use a different weapon.

Literally the only time I use Gokotai MH is if I'm standing back and nuking ONLY. For instance, MBing Dynamis wave 1 statue boss when others are opening a SC so you don't want to WS and mess it up.

he specified lowman with trusts and not a fully buffed party though. not saying the mainhand has to be gokotai, would depend on the skillchain he wants.

i think everyone agrees though that kannagi is not the number one pick for what he wants to do, there are others katanas that will perform better.

That's fair. Yeah I prob got more carried away at that list from my NIN-bro Sechs and wasn't really focused on the "do stuff with trusts and try to SC" aspect. But in that case, I'd still suggest that Gokotai mainhand is not a good choice if you have access to any REMA, including Kannagi.


Honestly, Kannagi is potentially a top 2 choice for that particular use case (solo for stuff like Sortie/Apex, using MBs). I'm not running any calculations right now, or going out and doing some real world testing (though I kinda want to!), but some common sense considerations:

Mainhand:
- Naegling is out for this application, just not a good choice for self SCs. Solo Savage spam with trust buffs is not going to beat SC/MBs.
- Heishi and Nagi may not have the buffs (if getting trust buffs only) needed to make hybrids or Blade: Ten perform well enough to be very impressive. You can do solid self-light with both (Shun-Shun light/radiance or multistep with Heishi, Nagi can rapid fire Shun-Kamu light SCs) and supplement with MBs, so they won't be BAD, but might not overtake the next two options. Nyame with augments is also important, these choices will be worse for anyone without that.
- Kikoku is a good choice, nice strong WS/SC with Metsu-Metsu darkness, you'll likely not be capping atk so can take advantage of the Atk+60 and Atk aftermath.
- Kannagi is... also going to be a pretty strong option. Kannagi-enhanced Blade: Hi is pretty solid for simple darkness WS/SC damage, and strongest white damage (should be able to maintain at least Empy AM1 for 30% ODT basically fulltime, and sometimes AM2/AM3)

Metsu being stronger than Hi, and Kikoku's substantial chunk of Atk likely being relevant should give that a modest edge over Kannagi white damage advantage and AM3 procs... but I would not expect Kannagi to lag far behind at all. I wouldn't even be shocked if Kannagi squeaked out a win or was essentially a sidegrade.

Now, Kikoku does have more overall utility than Kannagi, lot of other situations where it would be the winner. So if someone had neither and was just asking which one is the more practical katana to build, I'd say Kikoku. But if we're just talking about this specific posited use case... I'll be a bit of a Kannagi defender here.

Offhand:
Kunimitsu (even at rank 0) is a better choice than Gokotai even if just thinking about MBs. Same Macc (until Kunimitsu starts getting Macc on augments from r16+), same M.Dmg, almost same MAB and M.Acc skill(Kunimitsu has MAB+4 edge, Gokotai has 2 more M.Acc skill). But Kunimitsu gets Burst+10, as well as better performance for TP (STP+5) and WS/SC (WSD+5% and SC bonus+5). The only thing Gokotai has over it is INT+15, which doesn't outweigh those other benefits.

Like I said earlier, I do still keep my Kunimitsu in offhand and throw Gokotai on mainhand for the rare occasions where I'm standing back and *only* nuking. But if you're actually meleeing and WSing, much better physical DPS is going to be a better call, even if you are consistently MBing.

Really good discussions guys. Thank you!

Just for more context, I main BST usually in LS dynas. That's my best geared job. I levelled WAR to get invited to stuff like tank and spank Ambus and also Sortie and Oddy farming. I get more use out of WAR than any other job. THF is similarly geared purely for TH whoring. WHM from back in 75 era when that was my career job.

So NIN is a side project for fun. Won't be a career job. I do have 3x pieces of Nyame R15, so that's a bonus. I'm stuck on clearing Helms for THF Aeonic. Otherwise I'd have started the NIN one.

Hence my choice of Kannagi. But I'm only on the NM stage right now (at Megalobugard) and just started farming Abbyssea. Can't say I was looking forward to a lot of that. I do have the heavy metalmplates farmed already, which of course is a huge commitment.

So maybe sack this Kannagi off and go Kikoku? (Edit: Yeah this probably best for my needs/wants)
Whatever happens I always augment to maximum. I don't settle on R0 anything unless I really can't get help.

while this thread is up, has anyone tried a kanaria with additional effect stun on anything interesting? with the truckloads of macc we get these days I can't help but wonder if this katana could complement a defensive/tank nin build. always thought it was cool they added this, mamushito were tons of fun way back when.

@darwinion if you want to explore nin without the time/money investment of a different RMEA, kikoku is a very solid weapon and metsu is one of the best ws in low buff situations.

Yep, decision made. Will start farming old dyna. Sell some plates to help fund.

Assuming hybrids are not an option, Savage blade spam even in low attack scenario will still be able to compete with sc+mb. If hybrids are an option they will most likely do so much damage, that MBing is pointless. #ImSorry

Definitely!
Imho that's the best for your playstyle.

For playstyle for sure, for dps it's either savage spam, hybrid spam or hybrid SCs. The last one being by far the highest DPS assuming none of the elements involved are resisted.