The Sealed Dagger: A Ninja Guide

That's not how hardly any of what you said works though

You are indeed absolutely Correct yet that doesn’t seriously change much whatsoever at all.

36% Combining AM3 w/ Gear would end up around 32% to 33% TA per 100 Rounds which is still far greater TP return than STP+10 offers.
That is indeed how STP+10 actually works and my very Minor miscalculation doesn’t exactly allow STP+10 to outpace Mythic AM3 in WS/Round.

Not when Nagi can 1000 TP in 1 Round/WS way more often than Heishi is capable of doing.

You keep talking about some %, not really providing any source for anything. Just doing some math in your head based on some unknown sets and settings and you expect anyone to understand that. Damn.

I know what you're trying to say. I just don't know why you're saying it.

Let's leave it then :) I feel like it's something we would need to discuss on voice, because otherwise we gonna end up in an eternal loop :D

You forgot several steps. You didn't account for dual wield reduction which lowers base for both katana and dagger. Additionally it gives them the same base after the fact. You also didn't take other store TP into the factor. You also over estimated the mythic quite a lot. Additionally the return tp from a weapon skill is lower not only from the lack of store tp but the single hit compared to shun, so the weapon needs less to get to next weapon skill already. It's not as simple as you tried to show.

1 ) DW is 0 since we talking Party setup Max Buffs not solo w/o Trusts demanding DW to cap Delay

2 ) I didn’t take any other Gear nor STP into consideration since I was comparing Mirror TP sets of one another w/ Malignance using Aeonic vs Mythic w/ the defining Factor being AM3 vs STP+10 for Round/WS on SS

3 ) I spam Kamu + Shun nonstop & never once ever noticed Shun ending a WS w/ more TP at the End before the following Attack Round than Kamu. Idk where we are getting such ideas. Maybe I am mistaken but it certainly is nothing significant enough to even notice when staring at TP all day long.

A simulation would be more accurate when comparing store tp to multi hit in this case. Since spreadsheet takes every tp return and averages it, it assumes the same requirement every time. So while a MA piece might reduce your average rounds to ws in a sheet, it can more often leave you short. I just don't know why you brought it up or why you want to compare it to a simulation, which is going to be more accurate to real scenario in this instance anyways.

You have 35 naturally. There is no 0.

Unfortunately, it matters because of flooring.

Shun is a 5+1 hit ws. Kamu is 1+1. Without any store tp and no additional hits on either WS, Shun already has 40 TP more from a WS than Kamu. Shun also gears more for MA on WS so even more hits to return TP. I'm just explaining to you WHY the result is what it is in the spreadsheet.

Then that makes both Mirror reflections again meaning nothing changes comparing Aeonic vs Mythic. I merely took the BGwiki page for ea. item w/ the TP per Hit stated.
It shouldn’t w/ Mirror TP sets just like DW itself.
I am well aware of Shun but the TP after WS is nothing to eclipse AM3 if what you say is even accurate since it’s so minimal it’s not even noticeable.

Which is wrong. With 35 DW, 227+200 delays would be 53 per hit each. 177 vs 187 Store TP would result in 146 vs 152 TP per hit.

You're whole argument is that Nagi gets TP faster, nobody is disagreeing. But you are bringing up that the sheet is wrong because it has a lower Base TP Time in the sheet, I am just explaining to you why. The sheet is not calculating anything wrong in this case. The greater TP return on Shun is affecting that result because you need less TP to WS, and since the sheet uses a mean for everything, that is why the number is lower.

Yet I have Kannagi just like I have Kakka: Ichi and I never once confused AM3 as being less TP return or more Round/WS compared to Kannagi which is exactly what Heishi is except Kannagi is slighter faster w/ lower Delay.

Heishi doesn’t match Nagi in TP for Round/WS. Heishi matches Kannagi and very slightly surpasses such. It certainly doesn’t = Nagi Round/WS.

What the *** are you even arguing now?

I just *** told you why the sheet shows a higher TP/Time for Nagi.

Well you’re claiming I am not Wrong and you’re NOT debating such but also the SS is Correct in its own Calculations.

I’m not mistaken. The spreadsheet is out of touch w/ Reality. Idc the reasons why it’s OFF point. The simple Fact is that it’s indeed Wrong.

Are you wrong that Nagi gains TP faster? No.

Is the spreadsheet's calculations correct in this case that it does get TP faster? Yes. I have explained why that is the case. TP gain on shuriken and less TP required do to the multi-hit nature of Shun. You can change the WS to Shun for Nagi and see yourself instead of arguing about it.

Why is that then? Because the sheet takes the same mean for everything, including TP return. On top of that, the product of TP/hit and average hits per round is a useless metric for TP gain.

So is the sheet wrong? Not in calculation, just fundamentally.

Ok I went as far to make a simple sheet to illustrate to you how each factor has impact on final result in other sheet.

TP set:
9%TA, 16%DA, 77sTP in gear and 70sTP from buffs

Without storeTP:
Nagi+Ternion has 3.099584 attacks per round
Heishi+Ternion has 2.571664 attacks per round

Nagi has ~20.5% lead

Now APR multiplied by storeTP (+10more on Heishi ofc)
Nagi has 7.65597248
Heishi has 6.60917648

Nagi has ~15.8% lead

Now lets add Daken, real delays and 35% Dual Wield to check TP per round.
Nagi has 521
Heishi has 471

Nagi has ~10.6% lead

Now last factor. TP required to WS after WS.
Kamu WS set has 16%DA, 20%TA and 7sTP
Shun WS set has 16%DA, 26%TA and 12sTP

Shun has 290TP return, so need 710TP to 1000
Kamu has 209TP return, so need 791TP to 1000

Nagi: 791/521 = 1.518
Heishi: 710/471 = 1.507

Final result: Heishi is faster to 1000, even with Nagi having 10.6% more TP per round.

Here is sheet for this

I really should stop wasting my time on such trolling tho

That’s indeed odd when you’re now claiming the exact opposite.

The result is different because the variables are different.

I never actually noticed the slight TP return differential of Shun over other WS. That in itself is the main reason like you claimed comparing 1 WS vs another on SS. There’s not exactly even a search to find End of ws TP on BGwiki that I could find.

First hit is calculated just like a normal melee swing. If dual wielding, the second hit is also calculated that way. Any other hits of a WS whether it's from it's natural count or from a multi-attack proc will use 10 as it's base. Store TP affects these hits as well.

So in the case of shun, with 227+200 delays and 35 DW you naturally have.

53 + 53 + 10 + 10 + 10 + 10

Kamu would look like:

53 + 53

Start adding in additional hits to shun as well from MA and more Store TP on some pieces that also have MA such as Adhemar hands and the tp return is a good little bit more.

If we are going to nitpick the nin spreadsheet I would start with TP/Hit + ShrDist (Data line 236), if you set your daken to 0 (can be done manually or just give yourself a custom -79% in gear) it should become equal to just your katana tp but it does not.

As far as I can tell it does the following with a bunch of extra Truncating.

Kitana tp +((Shuriken tp per hit - kitana tp per hit)/(avg total hits per round))

I think what you want to do is a weighted average

(Shuriken tp per hit * shuriken hits per round + avg kitana tp per hit * avg kitana hits per round )/(avg total hits per round)

This also doesn't really need to be Truncated since its just an average not an actual tp value you ever actually get.

There's still a lot of problems with using a weighted average of tp per hit for all hits because you never actually get the average tp per hit on any hit, you get either the shuriken or katana tp returns depending which hit so you can get a much more accurate measurement of how store tp effects your hits/round if you calculate out the possible outcomes and their probabilities first and then find how many rounds you need and their tp overflow on average from that but that would be an awful lot more work and I have not been motivated enough to fix that yet.

Why would you use a weighted average in the first place when there is no variance in the amount of TP you get per hit? Shuriken and Katana tp/hit should not be affecting each other either. Unless you meant per round.

the kitana and shuriken hits return two different amounts of tp per hit, the spreadsheet combines them to form another number which it just uses for all hits. I'm saying ideally we would use another more accurate method but at the very least they are being combined in a way that is wrong.

You're overthinking it, tbh. You can just add them all together.
Just using base values to demonstrate
(53 * 1 * 0.99) + (53 * 1 * 0.95) + (63 * 0.79 * 0.95) would give an average 150.1015 per round. If you need to factor in QA rates cutting off a daken proc:

(53 * 1 * 0.99) + (53 * 1 * 0.95) + (63 * 0.79 * 0.95) * (1 * qa^2)

There is no reason to do a weighted anything. I don't know why the spreadsheet does it that way or why you think you need to do it your way either. This is simpler and more accurate.

It was done that way initially because the Daken proc was accounted for in the melee process and is then added to the average hits/rnd masquerading as a katana swing. (I think initially it was incorporated or built into the sheet based on the mnk's kick behavior, therefore it ended up as another katana swing).

The distribution was done at the time as a simple solution to add in more TP to the round.

In order to accommodate the structure that the sheet already had (as I wasn't too into the thought of re-engineering it at the time), I just added the difference of a shuriken vs a katana over the average hits / rnd so the sheet would incorporate it later in it's process to determine its contribution to the base tp / rnd.

Ninja Edit: It's funny now that I look at the sheet again, I started to remove the Daken inclusion on the melee results but didn't continue and fully take it out and work that into the data part. Ha ha ha, oh man, I wonder what I was doing at the time...

Heishi/KC has been impressive for me soloing stuff.... With nyame that sc dmg has been very impressive and 5 steps are a given and fast. No clue dps, but maybe someone runs that with max stp build can it compete?

Could just add KC to SS for those w/ the knowledge to do such. I’m surprised nobody has done such yet.

The Ninja guide is a community driven resource, if there are errors or improvements please discuss them in the thread. The spreadsheet repository hosted by Logical can be found here: https://github.com/NextGames2000/Spreadsheets

so is this not an excel spread sheet?

xlsx files are, you can just open in excel or google sheets.

Thank you. Maybe I did something wrong but was able to pull it up.