|
|
The Sealed Dagger: A Ninja Guide
By SimonSes 2020-05-20 08:39:47
Purely for bursting, wouldn't Perf Ochux2 beat other options thanks to their extremely juicy multiplier which gets calculated at the end of the damage formula and breaks the MBB cap??
Malevolence x2 offer the highest potential damage I think, but they're only viable when Macc isn't a concern, whereas Gokotai, Tauret etc offer damage and also a noticeable boost in Macc.
Granted that on some targets not even that macc boost will be enough, but in those situations you simply do not bother with Ninjutsu nuking and that's it, I guess.
In YT comments he answered this and looks like Ochu is worse even for bursting. The reason for that is probably Magic Damage difference. Ninjutsu probably doesnt have high base damage, so magic damage is potent for it and Ambu weapons have actually higher magic damage than REMA Katanas (217 vs 186) and Ochu is very far behind (108) and Malevolence is not much better (118).
By SimonSes 2020-05-20 08:53:45
imgur link to image
I'm honestly not sure how to test these things properly, but since nobody even commented on weapon swaps last time, I at least tried to get some experimental results on my own to share rather than simply claim that Savage Blade is worth it without any numbers to back it up. Here is my 'proof of concept' towards weapon swapping for Savage Blade. I'd appreciate it if somebody with more experience (and proper gearsets) could perform their own, more detailed, analysis.
I performed short tests on the DPS of r15 Heishi, r15 Kikoku, and Naegling+Hitaki with the following weaponskill combinations: Shun-Shun, Metsu-Metsu, Shun-Savage, Savage-Shun-Shun. These resulted in 20 Light skillchains, 20 Light skillchains, 20 Darkness skillchains, and 26 Light Skillchains, respectively. Both Savage Blade combos beat ShunShun and MetsuMetsu combos by about 15%. Surprisingly, SavageShunShun was lower DPS than ShunSavage. This may be an artifact of a relatively short duration parse, or perhaps damage lost when the monster died before the 2nd Shun+Light damage had a chance to go off. I expected SavageShunShun to result in the most damage. ShunShun beats MetsuMetsu by about 7% in these trials after normalizing Darkness damage to account for monster elemental resistances (-15%). I do not test Blade: Hi spam because my Kannagi is only r1.
I decided to fight Apex Toads in Woh Gates back-to-back until 5 minutes in combat elapsed for these tests. This ended up being 5 kills for all trials except ShunShun, which was 4 due to slightly slower kill times. A longer parse is desirable, but after about 5 minutes of combat the parse seemed to be relatively steady. I was going to do Doh Gates Jagil or Bats, but both of them have abilities that can strongly influence results (Attack Down debuff or Defense+ buff) and are heavily plagued with bots on Asura. I used Yoran-Oran (UC), Koru-Moru, Ulmia, and Joachim as trusts.
Buffs:
Kakka: Ichi (ninjutsu)
Haste2 (Koru-Moru)
Blade Madrigal (Ulmia or Joachim)
Sword Madrigal (Ulmia or Joachim)
Advancing March (Ulmia or Joachim)
Victory March (Ulmia or Joachim)
Debuffs:
Dia3
Because Qultada's buffs are variable, I exclude him from these tests to prevent one trial having a significant advantage over another. I expect the loss of Chaos Roll to bias the results slightly towards Blade: Shun damage because of its bonus to Attack based on TP.
In the event that Fotia proc'd after Blade: Shun use, I only took advantage of it if my next weaponskill was Blade: Shun. If I was performing ShunSavage when it proc'd, I swapped weapons with 1000+ TP anyway to ensure the only skillchain damage came from Savage Blade. Finally, because I am losing TP on weapon swaps, if I did not have at least Haste2 up while performing ShunSavage, I held TP until Koru-Moru reapplied Haste2 so that I do not risk failing Light with Savage Blade. I expect that this slightly lowered the DPS of ShunSavage considering that Blade: Shun isn't the majority of the damage on the ShunSavage trial, so holding TP before using Shun simply reduces how often I can Savage Blade.
In order to prevent blinking so that all skillchain and weaponskill damage are recorded into a log file properly, I locked ammo slot to Seki Shuriken and never swapped ammo for weaponskills. In addition, a few pieces of gear are locked behind restricted wardrobes because I'm playing on free login right now. For example: Savage Blade uses Epona's Ring and Kendatsuba+1 Samue, rather than Shukuyu ring and WSD body, while Blade: Shun uses Regal Ring, rather than Gere Ring. Finally, I did not bother magic bursting at all since almost all of my nuking gear is locked behind wardrobes I can't access.
How about To > Teki > Shun > Shun (with R15 Heishi ofc)
EDIT: ofc if that would almost kill the mob, you would need to switch to shun > shun or just 2000TP solo Ten instead of trying to start another 4 step that you know you wont finish.
 Phoenix.Logical
Serveur: Phoenix
Game: FFXI
Posts: 513
By Phoenix.Logical 2020-05-20 09:04:14
Purely for bursting, wouldn't Perf Ochux2 beat other options thanks to their extremely juicy multiplier which gets calculated at the end of the damage formula and breaks the MBB cap??
Malevolence x2 offer the highest potential damage I think, but they're only viable when Macc isn't a concern, whereas Gokotai, Tauret etc offer damage and also a noticeable boost in Macc.
Granted that on some targets not even that macc boost will be enough, but in those situations you simply do not bother with Ninjutsu nuking and that's it, I guess.
In YT comments he answered this and looks like Ochu is worse even for bursting. The reason for that is probably Magic Damage difference. Ninjutsu probably doesnt have high base damage, so magic damage is potent for it and Ambu weapons have actually higher magic damage than REMA Katanas (217 vs 186) and Ochu is very far behind (108) and Malevolence is not much better (118).
Indeed. I myself was very surprised when I learned this in my test as I was always told Magic Damage was pretty useless compared to Magic Attack and Intelligence but it really does appear to do something special with Ninjutsu...especially when added in such large quantities like on those Ambu/SU5/REMA weapons.
By SimonSes 2020-05-20 09:15:43
Indeed. I myself was very surprised when I learned this in my test as I was always told Magic Damage was pretty useless compared to Magic Attack and Intelligence but it really does appear to do something special with Ninjutsu...especially when added in such large quantities like on those Ambu/SU5/REMA weapons.
You probably heard that about Magic WSs, which is true.
It's pretty common knowledge that Magic Damage is very potent for low base damage magic nukes like:
- helixes
- blue magic spells (less for "high" nukes like Tenebral or Spectral and much more for "medium" nukes like Subduction)
- low tier Elemental Magic nukes
Ninjutsu base is probably closer to Blue magic, than helixes, so Magic Damage is not that OP for it, but probably still potent enough that +100 Magic damage beats bonuses from Ochu and Malevolence.
 Sylph.Reain
Serveur: Sylph
Game: FFXI
Posts: 396
By Sylph.Reain 2020-05-20 10:01:37
There's an equation here: https://www.bg-wiki.com/bg/Category:Ninjutsu#Magic_Damage_Equation
I find your tests a little weird to be honest.
Testing weapon skills with no attack buffs.
Testing on a monster that does attack down.
Testing DPS sets when Joachim/Ulmia aren't doing consistent songs.
Testing magic damage without Malaise.
Still good videos to watch though.
Phoenix.Logical
Serveur: Phoenix
Game: FFXI
Posts: 513
By Phoenix.Logical 2020-05-20 10:45:50
There's an equation here: https://www.bg-wiki.com/bg/Category:Ninjutsu#Magic_Damage_Equation
I find your tests a little weird to be honest.
Testing weapon skills with no attack buffs.
Testing on a monster that does attack down.
Testing DPS sets when Joachim/Ulmia aren't doing consistent songs.
Testing magic damage without Malaise.
Still good videos to watch though.
Yea I've looked at this before and tried to make sense of it. I think the reason it's having such a big effect is because it's directly added into that first segment but it's hard for me to look at this and grasp how 1 magic attack would compare to 1 magic damage.
I try to make my test as useful as possible and have an even playing field without any outside assistance (other then magical haste) to make sure i'm always comparing apples to apples. This is why I do or don't do many of the things you mention.
1. Attack buffs vary by source. ie songs, berserk, etc. This makes it hard to get accurate results based on each unique situation especially on a parser as those effects fade or wear without the ability to get them back up right away. This is where things like Langleys spreedsheet helps a lot.
2. When I do all of my DPS test I summon 3 trust. Ulmia, Koru and Yoran. Ulmia always puts dual march on me, koru always haste II and dia 3 on mob and yoran always removes the attack down buff from the bats literally the instant it hits me. The parse doesn't begin until every one of these stats and no other is on me. This creates an even playing field where the mobs abilities isn't affecting my parse results (as yoran removes it instantly) and that I always have the same capped haste on each mob without any other buffs.
3. I only use Ulmia with my DPS test as she is actually quite consistent on her songs when summoned in the above configuration. If you are referring to the trust I happened to use in this magic video... trust really didn't matter in this instance as all I was measuring was magic attack damage and wanted my haste as high as possible to make my recast time as low as possible.
4. This statement on Indi-Malaise confuses me...why would I do my test with Indi-Malaise? Am I just to assume I always have Geo in my pocket? My content primarily focuses on solo play with trust not hyperbuffing yourself with party members or multiboxing. There is a ton of things I could have factored in to increase damage further if we are going to start including buffs but all of it should simply boost the numbers you get and not change the recommendations of gear in this video.
[+]
 Lakshmi.Buukki
Serveur: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
By Lakshmi.Buukki 2020-05-20 10:51:31
Good explanations on the magic damage. I need to make some upgrades to my sets. Thanks for taking the time to test the damage differences.
[+]
 Asura.Sechs
Serveur: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 9891
By Asura.Sechs 2020-05-23 11:37:34
So for Hybrid WSs what would you use if you had these options available:
1) Dingir Ring
2) Regal Ring (set bonus up)
3) Metamorph Ring +1 (augmented)
4) Shiva Ring +1
Since we're here for the earring I'm currently using Friomisi/Moonshade, but then I looked at Lugra+1, Would Lugra+1 beat Friomisi, without the additional dusk-til-dawn bonus?
Sylph.Reain
Serveur: Sylph
Game: FFXI
Posts: 396
By Sylph.Reain 2020-05-23 12:07:14
I think it's a tricky question because the answer probably changes depending on the rest of your equipment, buffs/debuffs and target.
I would be curious to see other people's sets too.
Asura.Sechs
Serveur: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 9891
By Asura.Sechs 2020-05-23 12:22:21
My gear for Hybrid is pretty bad, I lack WSD Herc stuff so I kinda use what I have.
My set atm is:
ammo="Seething Bomblet +1",
Head="Hachiya Hatsuburi +3",
neck="Sanctity Necklace",
ear1="Friomisi Earring",
ear2="Moonshade Earring",
body="Samnuha Coat",
hands="Leyline Gloves",
ring1="Regal Ring",
ring2="Dingir Ring",
back=AndartiaWS,
waist="Engraved Belt",
legs="Hizamaru Hizayoroi +2",
feet=HercFeetWS
Samnuha and Leyline have perf augs.
HercFeet has DEX+8, WSD+7%, Acc/Att+15, Macc/Mab+2
Andartia has: INT+30, Macc/Mdmg+20, Mab+10
Legs I dunno, I could use Gyve legs, not sure why I'm using Hiza+2, Ig uess they have WSD+7, lotsa acc and some att. It's a hybrid WS after all not a Magic one, so acc/att have some relevance too.
Sylph.Reain
Serveur: Sylph
Game: FFXI
Posts: 396
By Sylph.Reain 2020-05-23 13:09:24
I'm not really sure I've found my best set yet. This is what my solo set is atm:
ammo="Seeth. Bomblet +1",
head={ name="Mochi. Hatsuburi +3", augments={'Enhances "Yonin" and "Innin" effect',}},
body={ name="Rawhide Vest", augments={'HP+50','"Subtle Blow"+7','"Triple Atk."+2',}},
hands={ name="Herculean Gloves", augments={'"Mag.Atk.Bns."+21','"Store TP"+2','Quadruple Attack +2','Accuracy+11 Attack+11','Mag. Acc.+17 "Mag.Atk.Bns."+17',}},
legs={ name="Mochi. Hakama +3", augments={'Enhances "Mijin Gakure" effect',}},
feet={ name="Herculean Boots", augments={'STR+1','"Mag.Atk.Bns."+27','Accuracy+15 Attack+15','Mag. Acc.+20 "Mag.Atk.Bns."+20',}},
neck="Fotia Gorget",
waist="Orpheus's Sash",
left_ear={ name="Lugra Earring +1", augments={'Path: A',}},
right_ear={ name="Moonshade Earring", augments={'Attack+4','TP Bonus +250',}},
left_ring="Epona's Ring",
right_ring="Gere Ring",
back={ name="Andartia's Mantle", augments={'STR+20','Accuracy+20 Attack+20','STR+10','Weapon skill damage +10%',}},
Haven't really changed anything since Odyssey augments came out. If I had fighter's roll I'd probably change some of the multi-hit pieces. Was experimenting with a DA cape too but not sure. Not 100% sure about the neck either.
[+]
Phoenix.Capuchin
Serveur: Phoenix
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3479
By Phoenix.Capuchin 2020-05-25 02:20:37
Good explanations on the magic damage. I need to make some upgrades to my sets. Thanks for taking the time to test the damage differences.
Agreed, thanks Logical - I'd been slacking on some of my nuke stuff just due to pure laziness. You're absolutely right that Malevolence clearly loses to the ambuscade weapons (whether Gokotai, Tauret, or Naegling, since they all have the same Macc/MAB/Mdmg/skill), so I shouldn't have been thinking to use those any more for any stand back and pure nuke type situations. Su5 isn't too far behind Ambuscade weapons, and still ahead of Malevolence... so also a viable option (especially if you have some desire to use it over ambu weapons for the added attack/utsu beenfit, or higher accuracy for your melee needs).
Grabbed a Skrymir Cord too (I don't have Orpheus nor am I up for paying that cost now). Appreciate you keeping me current.
Now, the one constructive criticism I'd provide is that there's a lack of much discussion of Macc. While it's true that bursts significantly boost spell accuracy, which might reduce your concern there, it's worth keeping in mind that on harder mobs resists can be the biggest problem you run into. A lot of of the gear we'd be using anyway has both Macc and MAB/Mdmg, so no huge deal... but there are some pieces that just totally lack Macc and perform great on weaker stuff but could add resists on hard content (Gyve Trousers are a good example). I also tend to err on the side of pieces that perform close to the top of the pack that combine MAB/Mdmg that might be a little less than the best unresisted damage piece, if they're paired with solid Macc (Sanctity Necklace, Pemphredo Tathlum are good examples).
Phoenix.Logical
Serveur: Phoenix
Game: FFXI
Posts: 513
By Phoenix.Logical 2020-05-28 13:20:20
Latest edition of A Guide To Ninja has been released. Episode 13 covers Langly's Spreadsheet and how to use it. Hope some find it useful. Stay safe all.
YouTube Video Placeholder
Phoenix.Capuchin
Serveur: Phoenix
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3479
By Phoenix.Capuchin 2020-05-28 17:49:43
FYI, really suggest everyone to take a look at Logical's nuking video linked on the last page. I made some tweaks to my own sets that I'm quite happy with and I'm seeing better damage. Dyna last night I hit several 40k+ non-Futae MBs on wave 1 boss, 65k+ with Futae. That's without max buffs: had a COR in party using I thiiiiink Samurai/Wizard's (I should have been paying more attention), and nothing else from within the party. One GEO from the other party, who I assume was using GEO-Malaise but again I wasn't paying super close attention. Had some gear adjustments across the board, but the biggest positive impact was definitely dual wielding Ambuscade weapons.
Logical was being a traitor to the ways of NIN and coming SMN instead... (grats on your neck completion, bud!)
Looking forward to checking out the new video.
Bahamut.Bixlow
Serveur: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 5
By Bahamut.Bixlow 2020-05-31 06:06:30
Howdy folks!
Aspiring NIN here. We're about to finish up our Aeonics round, so I'll have Heishi in a little while, and I'm working on my various sets.
During the Oseem event I got these Herc feet with some QA on them:
I'm wondering if these would be better for TP purposes on general stuff (ambu, cp, etc.) than this pair of Herc feet with TA on them:
Thanks for the input!
Phoenix.Logical
Serveur: Phoenix
Game: FFXI
Posts: 513
By Phoenix.Logical 2020-05-31 07:48:38
Howdy folks!
Aspiring NIN here. We're about to finish up our Aeonics round, so I'll have Heishi in a little while, and I'm working on my various sets.
During the Oseem event I got these Herc feet with some QA on them:
I'm wondering if these would be better for TP purposes on general stuff (ambu, cp, etc.) than this pair of Herc feet with TA on them:
Thanks for the input!
The Triple Attack boots pull out ahead on DPS slightly even when you don't include the Accuracy boost that they have. Now we are really only talking 1-2DPS here between them but due the Accuracy bonus and that they are 1-2DPS ahead it's definitely the TA Boots.
Bahamut.Bixlow
Serveur: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 5
By Bahamut.Bixlow 2020-05-31 07:56:58
I figured that was probably the case. Good to know, thanks!
Serveur: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1325
By Asura.Azagarth 2020-05-31 14:45:39
Howdy folks!
Aspiring NIN here. We're about to finish up our Aeonics round, so I'll have Heishi in a little while, and I'm working on my various sets.
During the Oseem event I got these Herc feet with some QA on them:
I'm wondering if these would be better for TP purposes on general stuff (ambu, cp, etc.) than this pair of Herc feet with TA on them:
Thanks for the input!
Very little effort to get 4 TA, just use fern stones and you will get one very fast. Those will beat both.
 Lakshmi.Watusa
Serveur: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
Posts: 702
By Lakshmi.Watusa 2020-06-01 19:03:11
Is Blade: Ku even worth using if you've got a Gokotai? I'm not finding it that impressive and still relying on Shun/Ten instead.
Lakshmi.Buukki
Serveur: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
By Lakshmi.Buukki 2020-06-01 19:59:47
It actually is kind of competitive. I used it way back on gin with max buffs and it was doing roughly 22-26k. It's more of a multi use katana but for any newbie non REMA ninja I would definitely recommend it. The numbers you can put out unsupported or supported are both pretty nice for a starter weapon. Ku is good
Bahamut.Bixlow
Serveur: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 5
By Bahamut.Bixlow 2020-06-02 09:08:26
Howdy folks!
Aspiring NIN here. We're about to finish up our Aeonics round, so I'll have Heishi in a little while, and I'm working on my various sets.
During the Oseem event I got these Herc feet with some QA on them:
I'm wondering if these would be better for TP purposes on general stuff (ambu, cp, etc.) than this pair of Herc feet with TA on them:
Thanks for the input!
Very little effort to get 4 TA, just use fern stones and you will get one very fast. Those will beat both.
Yeah I’m working on that. Haven’t had much luck thus far with 4 TA and any amount of acc unfortunately.
Phoenix.Logical
Serveur: Phoenix
Game: FFXI
Posts: 513
By Phoenix.Logical 2020-06-04 18:31:14
Elite Blade: Shun Gearset video is out. Hope some find it useful.
YouTube Video Placeholder
Phoenix.Logical
Serveur: Phoenix
Game: FFXI
Posts: 513
By Phoenix.Logical 2020-06-09 14:33:56
Elite Fast Cast Gearset video is out. Hope some find it useful.
YouTube Video Placeholder
 Asura.Psylo
Serveur: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 446
By Asura.Psylo 2020-06-10 07:08:00
New hat +1 from update, usefull in a Teki set ?
Asura.Sechs
Serveur: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 9891
By Asura.Sechs 2020-06-10 08:04:58
It's not a hat, it's a "body" item technically, but it uses both the body and head slots.
Asura.Gotenn
Serveur: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 243
By Asura.Gotenn 2020-06-10 18:54:54
It could be, with Heshi and tp bonus offhand, you lose a lot of iLVL with that body, but the +30 affinity should make up for that. I'm pretty sure Teki was already a decent magic damage option before that body anyways.
Siren.Kyte
Serveur: Siren
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3331
By Siren.Kyte 2020-06-10 19:31:01
It's not worth losing two slots for.
Serveur: Fenrir
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3188
By Fenrir.Skarwind 2020-06-10 19:47:37
It's a shame it wasn't just a hat.... Like if the crab hat+1 had those stats it could be usable.
Lakshmi.Buukki
Serveur: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
By Lakshmi.Buukki 2020-06-10 20:04:12
It could be, with Heshi and tp bonus offhand, you lose a lot of iLVL with that body, but the +30 affinity should make up for that. I'm pretty sure Teki was already a decent magic damage option before that body anyways.
Teki is actually a hybrid, not a magical. So the damage bonus would only apply to the magical part of the equation and nothing to the physical. So you'd lose a ton from no STR/INT attributes, ACCURACY, Attack, and most importantly, WSD. It's not even close to making up for the loss
Siren.Kyte
Serveur: Siren
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3331
By Siren.Kyte 2020-06-10 20:08:33
Yeah, it would sooner work for nukes and Blade: Yu than for Teki (and it's not worth it for those things either).
|
|
