The Sealed Dagger: A Ninja Guide

Nin’s problem is that it just doesn’t have a place in parties. It can’t do enough DPS to justify bringing it over another DPS. It used to have a higher utility than others or was a viable tank back in the 75 era. However viewed in 2019 it’s utility has been severely diminished. With the advent of the SU5 weapons you don’t need ninja for Subtle blow. Even if you made it a tank it could never unseat a rune for the king of the tanking mountain.

And as far as survivability goes other jobs just have more tools now a days. For instance, Dark Knight can spam 40-70k WS, has drain 3 so is always at 6k plus HP. Has Dreadspikes, stun, access to sleep. Migawari can stop one hit has a long recast time even at max haste and literally everything rips shadows.

The most recent update to Ninja actually put nin in an even worse spot than it was before. We gained access to the elemental wheel for SAN. We lost arguably the best relic piece for ninjutsu elemental spells.

To make Ninja viable again it needs a rework to how shadows work, update Ninjutsu enfeebles to make them worth casting, a huge boost to WSD and it’d be nice if it was worth it to bother casting a MB on a self SC.

The reality is, Nin is behind every other dual wielder in the game. Outside of one Ambu a year, and Tenzen spam with my alt bard I have no reason to use my Nin and that’s a damn shame because it could be as good as Bluemage. Blue just does everything better than it does (but so does just about every other dualwielder in the game).

TLDR: FFS I’m willing to go so far as to say a BIS DD Bard could out DPS a nin with Rudra’s spam.

Nin has Tachi: Ageha to lower def Sechs

It's kind of a frankenstein monster ofa job which is why i wasnt suprised when it got shafted on its update, multiple paths to take to improving it but they dont seem to know which way to go.

It can nuke, but not terribly great at it

It can tank, sort of and only against a singular mob that eats shadows,once you add in multiple mobs it becomes a huge pain

It can DD, somewhat okay, lacks a really good spam WS and Ten's scaling is kinda eh, but its okay, is probably the best in survivability through shadows/miga if applicable, as well as SB gimmick like you said

So til SE decides where they want to put nin, thats probably where itll stay a sort of jack of all 3 roles but not really excelling in any of them, easiest "fix" would just be a blanket katana WS adjustment

So did Monk with Shell Crusher, but I'm not sure we can compare these options to jobs who can do that with one of their main Weapon type (WAR and SAM for instance, or DRG if we wanna factor Angon)

Yeah but Godhands + base h2h damage is like 130 damage above Heishi. It's a massive advantage when you deal with only 30% STR/DEX mod.

Nukes are bad in general these days, outside of magic burst.
NIN can do decent magic bursts but it requires you to stay behind the monsters with Innin up and you need to swap your weapons for dual Perf Ochus. Kind of a bad requirement.
If that was changed to be a passive bonus proportionate with the quality/ilevel of your weapons, it would be different for instance.

In the end this is a moot point. Would be cool for solo or even lowmen but pretty much irrelevant in 99% of other group content. I.e. it wouldn't make NIN particularly more attractive than it already is.

Simply changing Shun from Att bonus to TP bonus property, could be enough, for the moment.

Everything else we mentioned would be cool but we all know it's not gonna happen, right?
I'm still really really sour about the indirect Relic+3 head nerf though. Wish they could swap those bloody head/feet augs like they did for RDM, but appearently none of the JP players care.

R15 kik, and R15 carn here with bis. Ninjas can always out DD bard. Higher white damage and metsu > metsu makes a nasty darkness. Rime>rime is only distortion. But even aeonic route I still still dont see that. Ninja weaponskills far more frequently.

But you never know with jobs on this game. Abyssea era was ninja. Monk, and whoever had chant. Whatever new content they come out with for empy +3 gear might change things around. I feel like these job updates are basically being groomed for whatever content is coming.

Yeah I mentioned it later in the post.
All H2H weapons damage got bumped up a fair bit and, honestly, I think all H2H RMEA already had higher base damage (combined with skill) than Katana RMEAs.
Let's say the gap got even wider after that patch.

I just wanted to point out that the WS properties in themselves are somewhat ok but there are other factors (like weapon base damage for instance) that create serious limits to NIN's final damage output.

I hope I'm not forgetting anything but atm only Daggers have lower base damage than Katanas, among 1h weapons, that is.
Daggers compensate the low damage with some truly outstanding WS properties.
Katana WS properties, while not bad, are simply not good enough to achieve the same result.

More frequently than a BRD with AM3 up? Maybe you're right, I haven't checked, but I wouldn't be so sure about that.

Either way, I think it would be a more even comparison to pick Heishi Shorinken (Ten spam) vs Aeneas (Rudra spam)
Also I wouldn't factor SC damage because realistically that only affects solo damage and nobody here is particularly concerned about how well a certain job does when solo. We were talking about group content, weren't we?

You also need to have futae up, overall its just poor but its a "niche" nin has so figured id put it up there.

That, making kamu not a laughing stock of a weaponskill, maybe upping the ftp on Hi/Ten slightly, not looking for the massive overhaul mnk WS got but just a bump would be enough id think

That being said, even most people don't really realize that, MNK hits super slow. MNK has the highest delay among all melee jobs (assuming you comparing REMA or at least regular delay weapons, not 0 delay H2H or WAR dual wielding two high delay clubs :P), so high damage on weapons + base h2h is justified.

I wouldn't really expect Metsu to get buffed a ton:
(1) it's one of the only currently good Relic WS (so the more likely scenario is that other Relic WS get much stronger buffs to make them more competitive with the alternatives for that weapon type, and Metsu maybe gets a more modest change), and

(2) SE seems to be leaning into the idea that "best WS" is often dependent on which weapon you're using. NIN is a great example of this, in that different weapons make a big difference on WS selection. Aside from SC usage, for your primary damage WS on NIN it pretty much breaks down as:
Kikoku: use Metsu
Kannagi: use Hi
Heishi: use Ten (thanks to Aeonic TP bonus) or Shun (associated WS)
Anything else: use Shun

In light of H2H WS (aside from Final Heaven) getting changes across the board, it would seem much more realistic to me that they buff all katana WS and keep the ones associated to a particular RMEA relatively in line with each other when using them with "their" weapon. Perhaps Metsu would get adjusted alongside other Relic WS instead of katana WS, but in the end I would expect it to keep pace with the other top NIN options depending on weapon.


Yeah, as a diehard Kannagi lover, I really appreciate its white damage - which IS relatively strong as FFXI goes. But since the H2H 99% acc cap changes, MNK outdoes it substantially thanks to Impetus. And now that MNK also got a significant WS buff, it's quite a bit more powerful for overall DPS. My MNK with only a Karambit now beats up on my NIN with essentially perfect Kannagi TP set.

I think THF is probably also ahead of NIN these days on white damage, thanks to copious amounts of TA damage+ and crit dmg+. Especially true for Tauret builds (huge crit rate under 1000tp).

Today I would guess that as a general rule it's prob something like MNK #1, THF 2, NIN 3. Crocea Mors RDM would also be up there with its enspell added damage, wouldn't shock me to see it above NIN from a white damage perspective.

And the above is melee only: Armageddon is a freaking white damage monster on RNG.


It's kind of nonsense to think that other DDs are really making Su5 B path weapons for Subtle Blow setups. Yes, it's POSSIBLE, but nobody is really doing that, and it would be a massive downgrade in DPS over better weapons.

That being said, NIN sucks for SB anyway... because we have precisely ZERO Subtle Blow II gear aside from gimping mainhand weapon with Su5/B path. It's dead simple to cap SB+50 on ANY job with Auspice (SB+25 with WHM Empy+1 feet), which you'd want to use anyway if you were seriously employing a Subtle Blow strat. But other jobs have realistic builds in excess of SB+50 cap thanks to non-Su5 SBII gear. For instance, some other jobs can get:

- SB+75 for MNK (Sherida, Niqmaddu, Moonbow Belt +1), plus the very effective Inhibit TP effect from Penance
- SB+70 for DRG (Sherida/Dagon) and PUP (Moonbow+1/Niq)
- SB+65 for SAM WAR DRG (Niqmaddu/Dagon)

It makes me crazy that they haven't changed either/both of NIN Group 1 merits or Myoshu: Ichi from Subtle Blow to Subtle Blow II (or give a Ni spell for SBII).

I feel Yurin is also too weak to truly make a difference in low TP feed situations: 10% inhibit TP for a max of 3min duration (no resist), but it can AND WILL be resisted on any target of consequence (i.e., anything where you'd actually want to employ a low TP feed strategy) so ends up providing far less practical utility.

Compare that to MNK's Penance/Chi Blast which is both much stronger in potency (35% inhibit TP with 5/5 merits and relic head), AND cannot be resisted. Static duration of 100sec (assuming 5 merits) on a 180sec JA cooldown, so you can keep it up over half of the time with 1 MNK, or fulltime with 2 MNKs cycling their Chi Blast usage. Plus those 2 MNKs will be doing more damage while they fight with Subtle Blow +75...


They should either just make Futae a stance (with some sort of penalty to something other than nukes), or massively reduce the recast timer from 3min to something like 30 seconds.

If they want to say NIN's niche is a melee job with nuke utility, at least give them the tools to nuke respectably.

Bit of a Derail but:

The SU5 GK on Sam Is insanely powerful for SB setups with Path B. The Sam can retain full DPS gear and cap SB with Monk's roll alone. Because Monk's roll over caps it. But for things like Odin VD, or the Frog Ambu from a few months ago. Using the Su5 GK with Sekkanoi Ageha at the start. The mobs die in 1 min or less from a single 5 step or a 5 step and one extra WS. SB Path B super buffed sam makes content so ridiculously easy.

Path B Father Time on Drk does 70k Cross Reapers in Dyna D. So I wouldn't say that using path B gimps their damage by any means. Honestly I was surprised by how easy it makes content with a single super buffed dps.

Well am3 carn needs a very specific, almost impossible to obtain, gear set. Volte and Ashera. Maybe then, bard can weapon skill at the same rate. But out of all my jobs, ninja seems to get TP the fastest. Of course no math to back it up. But usually I cant weaponskill fast enough on it.

The subtle blow discussion was more the fact that Ninja doesn't fill the role well enough to consider taking it over another job. Which in my opinion is it's problem. Why take ninja when literally everything it can do, something else can do better. Nin doesn't have to be the best at anything, but it needs to be able to stand toe to toe with thf, dnc, blu in order to even be in consideration.

And quite frankly, NIN and MNK *should* be the two kings of Subtle Blow. They are the two jobs that get high levels of the trait, and NIN has SB merits. There's no good reason NIN should be behind the many jobs with SBII options.

We're basically in agreement though, that NIN doesn't do a great job of filling the Subtle Blow DD role that is sometimes cited as a possible use. Several other jobs are objectively better at that niche.


I don't doubt that the B path weapons can still put out respectable damage, I'm just skeptical that the major expense of a R25 Path B weapon is necessary to do the same damn thing with even stronger weapons.

Dyna D really isn't a situation where limiting TP feed is even all that useful - aside from Wave 2 bosses, mobs die fast anyway and don't have much in the way of deadly TP moves. While I'm not saying Father Time can't put out some damage, something like a Caladbolg (or even A path Father Time) should be even better for applications like Dynamis.

As for SAM:
Monk's Roll and Su5 weapon aren't even remotely necessary. I would struggle to justify the expensive weapon to hit the SB+SBII cap of 75, when you can easily get SB+65 with a Dagon Breastplate and likely achieve the exact same result in the same strategy (not to mention the luxury of Yaegasumi to further protect against TP moves). You can cap SB on SAM with just Kendatsuba +1 head/legs/feet (SB+26) plus Auspice (SB+25). Then SAM has access to another SBII+15 from Dagon/Niqmaddu. All of those pieces aside from Dagon are BiS SAM TP gear anyway (and Dagon is still great, pretty minor DPS difference from the standard Ken+1).

Even if no Dagon, I have a hard time believing that a single super buffed Masa or Doji SAM with SB+55 is unable to do substantially the same thing as a SB+75 Su5-B SAM. Less SB, but it's still a huge reduction in mob TP gain when you have a single DD with capped SB (much less another 5~15 SBII)... and the Masa/Doji SAM kills even faster (dead mobs also can't use TP moves).

The entire premise of subtle blow (tp generation as a whole) needs to be reworked.

Kinda painted themselves into the corner though. No easy solution. Honestly not even just subtle blow, the entirety of battle has grown to fast for mechanics. a mob can gain 10,000 tp before it can even finish using a move.

Utsusemi just needs one buff to NIN main spells to fit this criteria. Make Utsusemi able to absorb certain area of effect moves and it instantly becomes the better defensive choice. This would have been cooler before Malignance, but would still be a welcome addition. NIN's whole idea is being able to attack from the cloak of secrecy and protection. You have to update that ability to fit the current game, otherwise it's not very helpful.

You can still buff-to-bandwidth NIN and do Blade:Chi spam, that's pretty fun.

Have Ichi absorb all Spells, Ni and San single target spells, that way you have to limit the use, and pick carefully what to cast.

NIN needs mostly the same as the MNK update. Some higher mods on WS (Ten), some better fTP on others (Ku, Shun) and then things like, have Yonin increase the CE/VE of Ninjutsu far more than it does.

I'm holding out hope we're on pace to get a 1h update, since they've mostly been buffing non-1h jobs. I want to see something like "crits generate extra TP" to sorta fit the niche they've been pushing more 1h jobs towards.

I wouldn't even mind something like a Magic Evasion check for Utsusemi shadows. More Meva = more chance of a NIN main "saving" some of your shadows on an AoE.


Mostly with you, except that I find Yonin enmity fine as-is. I might be biased because I use Su5 when I care to retain hate, but my ability to retain hate is in line with other tanks with the weapon's recast reduction and added enmity (and people certainly don't need Su5 for that, a much cheaper Su4 is also very strong for enmity/tanking purposes). Kinda fine with needing to use a somewhat weaker DPS mainhand to tank well, that's a perfectly reasonable tradeoff in my book.

Love the crit = more TP idea though.

They could do a lot more with Shuriken stats too... If 2h DDs get stuff like Utu grip, then surely we can do better than Seki/Happo+1's relatively minor stat increases.

That's not just shuriken's, but offhands as a whole. Any job with a crap Empy (AGI+50 for NIN, bleh) or with an Empy that's potentially BiS mainhand lost their ideal offhand weapon, and 2h jobs get the full effect of their mainhand with a really good offhand equip. Meanwhile 1h jobs only get half their strikes with mainhand effects and hitting with a weaker weapon. I sure wish they'd take off the "mainhand only" of su5 at minimum so all 1h jobs can play with those as offhands.

That will just encourage more Corsair brokenness. 50STP, double damage+50% (both swings) in just the weapon slots alone. All updates needs to be balanced around how badly corsair can/will abuse it.

Anyways, I optimize silly stuff on NIN like nuke and enfeeb sets, even though I rarely use them. Since SE has been so gung ho about giving us ninjutsu priority over anything else, they should just go ahead and give us Magic Attack Bonus VI trait and reduce Futae cast to something like 60 seconds. Being able to consistently nuke high damage on skillchains mid-fight would be far more useful than it is right now, kind of fun and a nice change of pace (wouldn't mind 60k+ MB in between SCs).

And while we're at it, buff Futae and allow it to extend to Debuffing and Self-Enhancing Ninjutsu and give it a native Magic Accuracy boost. Make it the NIN version of Saboteur: using 2 tools givesdouble potency/augments spells. They wouldn't even have to give us the Ni/San version of spells if they went this route, and it could give NIN some very interesting options for how to use it strategically

i.e.
Futae >> Jubaku Ichi = Paralyze II
Futae >> Myoshu Ichi = grants SBII (this solves the lack of SBII gear)
Futae >> Yurin Ichi = Penance level Inhibit TP

etc

Because if they are looking at ninja as a tactical strategist employing tricks with ninjutsu, it would be a trendy and interesting way to tweak the job and give it some useful niche

They already did the NIN monthly job update.
I think there aren't many chances to see fixes to currently existing JAs.

A buff to WSs and/or traits maybe, who knows.

Pretty sure the ninja update was just changing merit spells for other traits, and adjusting relic augments, which was standard for all magic unlock jobs. There should be a real job update to ninja coming in the future, unless they just decide to completely skip that job entirely. Would be fitting.

Such a great "adjustment" they did, inorite?

This is neeeeever gonna happen. Blade: Hi and Kannagi are AGI, and I'd be shocked if that ever changes. AFAIK there's no precedent for SE ever doing anything like changing the attribute on a WS mod or RMEA, they aren't going to start making those kinds of changes now.

But honestly? AGI on Kannagi/Hi isn't necessarily a crippling issue. You don't see people claiming Caladbolg is weak because it/Torcleaver have a VIT mod (despite that DRKs sure as hell wouldn't complain if those were STR). See also: Upheaval in the hands of a Chango WAR - nobody's saying OH GOD A VIT MOD THIS WS IS USELESS NOW.

They could still just pump up the potency of Hi via some other way like FTP increase, or pump up NIN white damage in general through other adjustments (Innin, whatever) which would lend itself wonderfully to Empyrean AM. Either of those could easily make Kannagi a standout despite the awkward attribute. Yeah, AGI definitely isn't the greatest, but I think at this point we need to just accept that's what it is. At least it gives SOMETHING in the form of a lot of Racc for Daken (not a useless perk), and some more modest defensive value in the form of some extra evasion, dDEX making it harder for mobs to crit, and dAGI slowing mob TP gain.

(and now I'll hope I'm wrong and a couple months from now we'll have DEXKannagi... but I freaking doubt it)


Aside from Buukki's comment that merit spells aren't necessarily "the job update" (see also RDM, with a substantial job update in February then a separate merit adjustment in August), there is also precedent for jobs getting a second crack at updates.

Look at DRG last month getting a REALLY nice update, with a brand new awesome trait (currently job-exclusive WSD trait that works on all hits??). And that was after a not too shabby initial adjustment back in January (the one when they split Jump timers).

PUP got an update in March (several new and adjusted attachments), further adjustments in August (the Flame Holder/Ice Maneuver not consuming maneuvers change, which was actually a pretty big deal), and then it got in on changes AGAIN with the H2H WS revamp last month.

MNK is even arguably somewhat of a "two update" job, with last month's big changes plus the H2H accuracy modifications in December 2018 (which really served to benefit Impetus a LOT).

Gungnir's WS, beleive it went from a crap agi mod to a 80% dex mod

I would say three.
Not long before they started with the approach of "monthly job updates" they did a job update specific for MNK where they changed Boost, Focus, Dodge and increased the delay and damage of all H2H weapons.

The fix to Boost/Focust/Dodge did almost nothing, if you ask me I liked it more the way it was before.
The H2H tweak insted was pretty nice.