How Do You Feel About Windower?

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How do you feel about Windower?
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 Shiva.Artemicion
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By Shiva.Artemicion 2009-05-13 12:00:56
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All I see is this:

User submitted image
 Ramuh.Dasva
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By Ramuh.Dasva 2009-05-13 12:01:12
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Dizzmal said:
Serbzook said:
Dasva said:
Seriously though I've never needed recast timers being displayed to solo on rdm. Hell check out the old vids of Avesta if there still out there. That dude uses like 2-3 maccros sets just to get all the gear changes for all his spells and he still soloed just about everything way back when.


yeap true skill, and playing by the way the game is designed. sadly we cant say the same about a lot of RDMs today who try to compare themselves with that taru.


I may be wrong, but wasn't is proved that he/she used Pos hacking when they soloed? I remember hearing this awhile back but I'm not 100% sure.

Never heard of it but looking at the vids I wonder um how since I dont see it happening in any of them
 Ifrit.Dinarii
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By Ifrit.Dinarii 2009-05-13 12:02:05
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Tbest said:
Yeah, seriously.. Meow how could you try to do a Super Troopers gag with such fail? Meow you're going to be laughed at. Because right meow the servers are about to go down... So meow FFXIAH's going to be swarmed by bored people that are meow unable to feed their addiction. Meow let the post spamming commence! Meow!


much better showing!
 Shiva.Artemicion
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By Shiva.Artemicion 2009-05-13 12:02:24
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It certainly deserves repeating:

Jaerik said:
The irony of people arguing that Windower is cheating on a FFXIAH.com message board never ceases to amuse me.

You guys do know we're the same people, right? The core technology behind Windower, and the core technology behind FFXIAH.com, were both written by Cliff, one of our site admins. Hell, even I was around during most of the original development of Windower. (Leave it to a samurai to dream up seeing group members' TP.) The maintenance of the Windower code base has since been taken over by another development group with a slightly different ideology, but the point is the same.

Did you know that at one point, the extended macro system that Windower has now was actually a fully-featured reactive scripting system? You could automate your entire character. You could conceivably teach it how to pull, how to buff and heal your group when they needed it, how to fight mobs, even how to automatically do missions and quests, and then give those scripts to other people. I still have a copy of the prototype -- it works quite well.

Did you know that if we wanted to, we could so dramatically improve the Crafting section on FFXIAH.com that it could automatically compute the exact best personalized money-making synth for you at any moment, based off over a dozen existing market figures, day/crystal combinations, and your players' synth skills? We have the data -- it wouldn't be hard to implement.

But the scripting system for Windower was never released, and you will never see that kind of crafting functionality on FFXIAH.com.

Why not?

As per my previous post in this thread, because Terms of Service agreements are not legally binding documents, the only "rules" in FF: Online are what any given GM tells any given person on any given day. Everything else is just guidelines. But what will make SE start banning people indiscriminately is if a particular tool starts to give enough of an unfair advantage that they begin to lose subscribers over it. As such, it is our duty as 3rd party developers to make sure our tools never cross that line.

But to sit on an FFXIAH.com message board and accuse Windower users of "cheating," due to some non-existent ethical violation, is quite simply laughable.


Truth.
 Ramuh.Dasva
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By Ramuh.Dasva 2009-05-13 12:17:20
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Lol yeah I think it was pointed out that techniqually by using this site your as guilty as a windower user so if your really that butthurt about it post somewhere else or GM call yourself
 Ramuh.Yasko
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By Ramuh.Yasko 2009-05-13 12:20:55
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The only person who suffers by the cheater is the cheater themselves.

Their experience is less authentic, and they know that. Being upset with them is as irrational as cheating in the first place. Maybe more so. Think of how much time you are wasting being angry, reinforcing the alienation between you two... giving power to the antisocial that encourages cheating in the first place. Vicious cycle. I only know because I have gotten upset too.

I personally think recast times should be displayed in an obvious matter. If you were a Real Life red mage, you'd have an intuitive grasp on what you could cast in a moment and what you could not just by feeling it. But in the same sense, changing your clothes in the middle of the battle is quite unrealistic.
 Bahamut.Zorander
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By Bahamut.Zorander 2009-05-13 12:21:45
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I still play on 360 and haven't made the jump to PC..I really wish SE would allow or make there own versions of Windower or whatnot. There are lots of cool things that windower does that doesn't "break" the game. I know you can cheat with it but improved macros has been needed for years, and if we can see our pt's MP why not tp(alright fine its a little different). And what I would love to see is a SE endorsed Parse program. In no way does that cheat, ruin or break the game. It lets you know how good the xp is, how good individual players do in dynamis lots of different applications..Come on SE get with it..
 Ifrit.Dinarii
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By Ifrit.Dinarii 2009-05-13 12:25:22
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Yasko said:
The only person who suffers by the cheater is the cheater themselves.

Their experience is less authentic, and they know that. Being upset with them is as irrational as cheating in the first place. Maybe more so. Think of how much time you are wasting being angry, reinforcing the alienation between you two... giving power to the antisocial that encourages cheating in the first place. Vicious cycle. I only know because I have gotten upset too.

I personally think recast times should be displayed in an obvious matter. If you were a Real Life red mage, you'd have an intuitive grasp on what you could cast in a moment and what you could not just by feeling it. But in the same sense, changing your clothes in the middle of the battle is quite unrealistic.


... magic vs changing clothes... yeeeeeeeeeh... ok
 Shiva.Artemicion
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By Shiva.Artemicion 2009-05-13 12:26:17
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What so many fail to realize is that a vast majority of windower plugins are nothing more than fancy on screen calculators and stopwatches for the most part. Nothing mechanical in game changes. There is no balance broken. Calling others out on knowing when to cast again or how far back they stand or how much exp they've earned in an hour is pretty lol.
 Ramuh.Dasva
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By Ramuh.Dasva 2009-05-13 12:28:07
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Artemicion said:
What so many fail to realize is that a vast majority of windower plugins are nothing more than fancy on screen calculators and stopwatches for the most part. Nothing mechanical in game changes. There is no balance broken. Calling others out on knowing when to cast again or how far back they stand or how much exp they've earned in an hour is pretty lol.

Or that pretty much all of it is already acessible in some form without windower just not necessarily as convient
 Ramuh.Yasko
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By Ramuh.Yasko 2009-05-13 12:35:29
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Dinarii said:
Yasko said:
The only person who suffers by the cheater is the cheater themselves.

Their experience is less authentic, and they know that. Being upset with them is as irrational as cheating in the first place. Maybe more so. Think of how much time you are wasting being angry, reinforcing the alienation between you two... giving power to the antisocial that encourages cheating in the first place. Vicious cycle. I only know because I have gotten upset too.

I personally think recast times should be displayed in an obvious matter. If you were a Real Life red mage, you'd have an intuitive grasp on what you could cast in a moment and what you could not just by feeling it. But in the same sense, changing your clothes in the middle of the battle is quite unrealistic.


... magic vs changing clothes... yeeeeeeeeeh... ok


I'm confused by your confusion, but whatever. It brought up another hypothesis that makes the clothes changing during battle situation more realistic. (at least in magical context) Magic clothes in FF don't have to be dressed in by one leg first then the other. It just appears on you by sheer will, and by the knowledge that it exists.

Does that fit your ideals of rationale?
 Fairy.Tbest
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By Fairy.Tbest 2009-05-13 12:36:31
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Yeah, have you seen that plugin that automatically starts counting when you rest so you know when your next MP tick from resting will be? That's sooooooo broken! Seriously, ban anyone that uses something to count to 20 and then reset and count to 10 over and over!!!!
 Ramuh.Yasko
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By Ramuh.Yasko 2009-05-13 12:39:11
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Dasva said:
Artemicion said:
What so many fail to realize is that a vast majority of windower plugins are nothing more than fancy on screen calculators and stopwatches for the most part. Nothing mechanical in game changes. There is no balance broken. Calling others out on knowing when to cast again or how far back they stand or how much exp they've earned in an hour is pretty lol.

Or that pretty much all of it is already acessible in some form without windower just not necessarily as convient


That's how a lot more people rationalize using it. If it was offering something that wasn't already there, then it'd be considered "cheating" by definition. But because it's not hacking anything, and messing up things on server side, other people can continue playing the game with only a speculation of what other people are doing. And SE can make money off both people who window and people who do not.
 Ramuh.Dasva
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By Ramuh.Dasva 2009-05-13 12:39:36
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Should just give me a plugin/hack/bot that tells me where the tablets are gonna spawn ahead of time... yes I've seen this in action with people being afk going right to a spot a min or 2 later mob apearring kill afk move to another spot repeat. Friend was camping Deadly dodo or whatever it was called annoyed the piss out of him until he figured out what was up. Then just follow they guy cause his bot didn't use claiming spells/ja just auto attack lol.
 Leviathan.Syagin
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By Leviathan.Syagin 2009-05-13 12:43:00
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After reading a few pages I kinda have an idea how important this program is to several individuals an how many people claim they can not function w/o it. I personally don't care what people do if they choose to use it or not (To each is his/her own). I/myself don't use the program because I am a console user. But what I don't understand is...If people are aware that using this program could get you banned an they would so call "quit" FFXI if people was to start getting banned an what not. Why would you bring attention to yourself Via Screenshots,Videos,so on an so on? Because there are obviously people that could simply report you for for using a 3rd party program an just be done with it. I'm sure we all know that there are still some white collar player that are all about the "T.O.S policies" and would be happy to do so. Idk it just seems like common sense to me.
 Pandemonium.Luignata
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By Pandemonium.Luignata 2009-05-13 12:49:26
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It all boils down to this. Windower = Illegal, as described in the ToS and actions that have been taken by S.E. Nuff said.

Everyone using windower is wrong, regardless of their reasons. Don't use it.
 Shiva.Artemicion
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By Shiva.Artemicion 2009-05-13 12:49:31
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Syagin said:
Why would you bring attention to yourself Via Screenshots,Videos,so on an so on? Because there are obviously people that could simply report you for for using a 3rd party program an just be done with it. I'm sure we all know that there are still some white collar player that are all about the "T.O.S policies" and would be happy to do so. Idk it just seems like common sense to me.


Because SE has zero jurisdiction outside the game. Forums and non-official websites including screenshots have absolutely zero credibility. They can see it but they can't do anything about it. Similar to the fashion of police being unable to use evidence against someone if it was illegally obtained.

The only way they can really do anything to you is if you compromise yourself in game. That is the only place SE has the rights to do whatever they want for any (or no) reason at all.
 Shiva.Artemicion
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By Shiva.Artemicion 2009-05-13 12:52:12
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Luignata said:
It all boils down to this. Windower = Illegal, as described in the ToS and actions that have been taken by S.E. Nuff said.

Everyone using windower is wrong, regardless of their reasons. Don't use it.


As with any software, including FFXI itself. You use it at your own risk. There are no guarantees or assurance for anything. People who use the windower know what they're doing and what they're getting into. People who plead ignorance are either blind or incredibly stupid.
 Pandemonium.Luignata
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By Pandemonium.Luignata 2009-05-13 12:53:45
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Artemicion said:
Syagin said:
Why would you bring attention to yourself Via Screenshots,Videos,so on an so on? Because there are obviously people that could simply report you for for using a 3rd party program an just be done with it. I'm sure we all know that there are still some white collar player that are all about the "T.O.S policies" and would be happy to do so. Idk it just seems like common sense to me.


Because SE has zero jurisdiction outside the game. Forums and non-official websites including screenshots have absolutely zero credibility. They can see it but they can't do anything about it. Similar to the fashion of police being unable to use evidence against someone if it was illegally obtained.

The only way they can really do anything to you is if you compromise yourself in game. That is the only place SE has the rights to do whatever they want for any (or no) reason at all.


Ethically, yes. But SE reserves the right to cancel your account at any point in time, without cause. If they really wanted to do it, they could, and there wouldn’t be a single thing you could do.
 Ifrit.Dinarii
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By Ifrit.Dinarii 2009-05-13 12:54:14
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needz moar tears, and more bridges. then fire to fix em all and drown the whiney ***
 Ramuh.Dasva
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By Ramuh.Dasva 2009-05-13 12:56:02
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Luignata said:
It all boils down to this. Windower = Illegal, as described in the ToS and actions that have been taken by S.E. Nuff said.

Everyone using windower is wrong, regardless of their reasons. Don't use it.

So is using this site. You advocating not using this site? So is being associated to anyone breaking the TOS by anyway including personal info such as CC number DOB address etc..
 Shiva.Artemicion
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By Shiva.Artemicion 2009-05-13 12:56:36
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Luignata said:
Artemicion said:
Syagin said:
Why would you bring attention to yourself Via Screenshots,Videos,so on an so on? Because there are obviously people that could simply report you for for using a 3rd party program an just be done with it. I'm sure we all know that there are still some white collar player that are all about the "T.O.S policies" and would be happy to do so. Idk it just seems like common sense to me.


Because SE has zero jurisdiction outside the game. Forums and non-official websites including screenshots have absolutely zero credibility. They can see it but they can't do anything about it. Similar to the fashion of police being unable to use evidence against someone if it was illegally obtained.

The only way they can really do anything to you is if you compromise yourself in game. That is the only place SE has the rights to do whatever they want for any (or no) reason at all.


Ethically, yes. But SE reserves the right to cancel your account at any point in time, without cause. If they really wanted to do it, they could, and there wouldn’t be a single thing you could do.


And that's where it draws the line between what is acceptable and what is bad for business. Hence why a good majority of windower users are still playing.
 Ifrit.Dinarii
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By Ifrit.Dinarii 2009-05-13 12:58:02
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good majority? almost all that havent done like bonehead and GMd hisself and got teh warning. first rule of fight club...
 Pandemonium.Luignata
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By Pandemonium.Luignata 2009-05-13 12:58:38
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Dasva said:
Luignata said:
It all boils down to this. Windower = Illegal, as described in the ToS and actions that have been taken by S.E. Nuff said.

Everyone using windower is wrong, regardless of their reasons. Don't use it.

So is using this site. You advocating not using this site?


No where in the ToS does it say that you’re not allowed to view this site, or similar sites. Your argument is faulty.
 Ifrit.Dinarii
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By Ifrit.Dinarii 2009-05-13 12:59:44
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not quite, as it's a means of utilizing a third party venue to access in game content.
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By Fairy.Tbest 2009-05-13 12:59:46
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This is a third-party tool, whether you like it or not, Luignata.
 Ifrit.Dinarii
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By Ifrit.Dinarii 2009-05-13 13:00:39
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Tbest said:
This is a third-party tool, whether you like it or not, Luignata.


this.
 Leviathan.Syagin
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By Leviathan.Syagin 2009-05-13 13:02:19
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Artemicion said:
Syagin said:
Why would you bring attention to yourself Via Screenshots,Videos,so on an so on? Because there are obviously people that could simply report you for for using a 3rd party program an just be done with it. I'm sure we all know that there are still some white collar player that are all about the "T.O.S policies" and would be happy to do so. Idk it just seems like common sense to me.


Because SE has zero jurisdiction outside the game. Forums and non-official websites including screenshots have absolutely zero credibility. They can see it but they can't do anything about it. Similar to the fashion of police being unable to use evidence against someone if it was illegally obtained.

The only way they can really do anything to you is if you compromise yourself in game. That is the only place SE has the rights to do whatever they want for any (or no) reason at all.

Well TBH my friend caught the "banned stick" because someone was under the impression he was using the program an GM'd him, So idk how much fact is behind this statement.
 Pandemonium.Luignata
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By Pandemonium.Luignata 2009-05-13 13:02:45
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Tbest said:
This is a third-party tool, whether you like it or not, Luignata.


Show me where in the ToS it says that.
 Ramuh.Dasva
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By Ramuh.Dasva 2009-05-13 13:02:48
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Luignata said:
Dasva said:
Luignata said:
It all boils down to this. Windower = Illegal, as described in the ToS and actions that have been taken by S.E. Nuff said.

Everyone using windower is wrong, regardless of their reasons. Don't use it.

So is using this site. You advocating not using this site?


No where in the ToS does it say that you’re not allowed to view this site, or similar sites. Your argument is faulty.

Unless of course you actually read the other stuff. Then you'd realize that the people who made this site and windower are the same and made using similar programming...
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