Christians: We Arent Trying To Condemn Anyone

God isn't able to even look at sin. He set up one way for us to have our sins be sacrificed unto something else (normally lambs), but this only worked for sins already committed. When people stopped following this ritual, and started taking on the "hey, I can do whatever I want as long as I sacrifice a lamb for it later" approach, He changed it up.

Jesus being sacrificed took on the punishment of all our sins; past, present and future. Along with that, we were told to live by love, instead of by rules (because it was obvious people would do the same "I can do what I want and just ask for forgiveness later" thing all over again). Sending Jesus to earth to walk as a man was just a display for Jews at the time because we as humans don't believe in things well without seeing it with our own eyes. He said that the kingdom would be greater for those of us that believe without having seen it ourselves.

Jesus is the Word of God, ergo part of God. He is both all three things (Father, Son, Spirit) and one entity simultaneously. All action from creation on by God has happened through His word (Jesus), so it made perfect sense that He was the one sent as the sacrifice. Just like our creation, our Salvation also occurred through the Word.

Before I go back reading what I missed, can we all at least agree on this: No matter what you think, it's not alright to pull a handicapped individual off a wheelchair in protest.

Can we agree on that?

I guess...

Can you hit puppies with bags of kittens?
(to clarify, I am no fan of pet abuse. Love me some kittens and puppies.)

Here's a question for my theist friends of FFXIAH.

You believe a higher power created the universe and the myriad wonders that we're privy to observe on a daily basis but why exactly does this God have to be any of the Gods we see worshiped today? Why is your God out of the infinite the correct choice?

See, I'm willing to entertain the person that says "I believe in a higher power" because that at the least says that this person has no idea what the higher power is but they believe in something more complex than us.

But you see, the theists who post here never make those statements. Out of the infinite choices of higher powers, they always arrive at the current flavors of the month. Why is that?

Why could the God of the universe not have been Zeus? Baal? Quetzalcotl? Odin? Or any of the other gods destroyed over the course of history? What makes you so sure? Faith? Those people who worshipped the 'old' Gods were pretty sure too. Guess they were just too unlucky to have been born in the wrong time period. Maybe you too have chosen the wrong time to be born and the true God hasn't appeared yet. Have you ever thought about that?

Further, most theists would laugh at the notion of extraterrestrial designers or perhaps this dimension merely being someone intelligent child's video game or computer simulation. Why is this? Maybe every time an earthquake happens it's some alien teenager hitting the earthquake tool in his SimUniverse game just to mess with us.

Most theists are making two choices when they say they believe in a higher power:

1. I believe in a higher power.
2. I believe out of the nigh-infinite choices of higher powers that I have chosen the correct higher power.

And atheists are the arrogant ones?

Yes but it isn't fair to ignore why it happens.

While that's true, it's simply a question referring back to the OP. ( I think we all lost sight of that)

I see you guys are mulling over whether or not to just give this question a simple yes. It really shouldn't be that tough of a question.

I was expecting more of a yes, that shouldn't happen. After we can all agree on that, then proceed to question why it happens and what should be done.

Most of your monotheistic religions describe in some sense the same type of Deity. I feel that we are all worshipping the same God, He is just called by different names due to the cultures, languages and generations of different stimuli passed down through the generations. The difference between say Christianity and Judaism, lies solely on the route to God. He is described as the same God, but in Christianity, we believe the Saviour has already walked the earth and died for our sins. Jews are still awaiting the first coming of the Saviour. We aren't 'picking' the right entity to worship, God is God, we just worship him differently. That part is what all of us religions are fighting about, and it most definitely shouldn't be of concern.

Our focus should be the fact that we acknowledge His existence, and love of which we should spread through the world (not judgement).

I assure you all, it's not a trick question.

Daemun, you are my favorite theist ever. You know your stuff, think logically, and make points with a clear head instead of in anger. If everyone on both sides of the debate had such an attitude as yours, it would be an actual debate instead of a mud-sling. <3

The bolded pretty much sums up my thoughts.

I really can't pin myself down to one belief or another. It might take me a lifetime to figure it out, or maybe not.

I've never had any horrible first-hand experiences with religion in my upbringing the way other people here have, so I've never seen religion as a vile, oppressive entity that is intentionally out to corrupt and prey on weak-minded individuals. That's where I get my laissez-faire attitude about religion. I completely understand that others have had bad personal experiences, but I don't think people should pigeon-hole and entire group for what extremists believe.

I've had those moments of introspection throughout my adult life where I've wondered if my attachment to Christianity, even though I'm fairly ambivalent, is simply because of my upbringing. Sure, I have no qualms about having kids baptized because of the plain and simple fact that I just don't know.

As far as ancient gods go, sure. *** it! Mount Olympus and Valhalla. Why not? It's all essentially the same stories repeated over and over within different cultures. I mean, the flood story is in 'Gilgamesh' for crying out loud. Romans overran and adopted Greek gods, Germanic and Nordic gods are one in the same, the Romans adopted Christianity after Constantine saw "Chi Rho" emblazoned in the sky before battle, the list goes on...Whatever gets people through the day. That's all I care about.

I do have to say that maybe the worst thing I've ever seen took place while I was touring Rome. As we left the Vatican Museum I saw an elderly, homeless woman beaten with a baton by a police officer right out side the Vatican gates yards from the columnade. That shook me up.

EDIT: Jesus, Sparth! You come up with some thought provoking questions!

Thank you, Liela. I really appreciate your sentiment. I used to be a mud slinger, thinking I was "proving those horrible non-believers wrong", only to find myself being the worse person, and doing my God a disservice.

There is no denying how I used to treat proclaimed atheists and agnostics. There is no denying how I felt about Muslims. Upon having some self evaluation, self criticism, in-depth Bible reading and understanding, I have slowly eroded what was once a calloused heart.
Understanding first that we are all equals here; equally guilty, equally promising, really changed both my views and my behaviors.
Listening to As I Lay Dying and Haste the Day (yeah yeah cliche Christian Metal) really helped me with self evaluation and understanding what a soul really is at its core and how no single person is any more entitled to anything than another. I am always open for debate here, or just my theist insight on a topic. I would hope anyone wanting such wouldn't hesitate to ask me.

I'll be making a thread tonight of things that Christians should do I think both theist and non alike can agree it would be a great thing for professed Christians to follow. I'll tell more about it in the thread once I make.

To get back to the point No what that imparticular religous gruop did was absoutley appaling.
Most preachers would not stand for such things. But with that said you can not judge a hole religion on the actions of a few.

The same can be attached to any group, religious, ethnical, political, etc.

The actions of a person are that of their own and should not bear judgement on the entirety of that group.

atheism isn't a belief, atheism doesn't have branches, it's not an ideology.

it's a definition: without theism

a lack of belief cannot be a belief

those who say otherwise are *** idiots...



no, just no.

all those who lack a belief in a god are atheists, everyone's an atheist just typically those who define themselves as atheists believe in just one less god than the rest of humanity...

theism: belief in a god, prefix a- meaning without

without theism = atheism, those who lack a belief in god...

your last part is the only part that is accurate...***


logic, and being intolerant of stupidity is perfectly fine.

we also have a right to not be infringed upon by your insanity, but you *** keep infringing, you caused this.


no, just no...


I freaking love you sometimes dude...

because you are the ones making the claim...

there is no evidence for your or any god, none...

logic cannot be used to discuss the absolute existence of something that there is no proof for...

considering the universe is basically never ending, it's not that improbable...

your second idea doesn't include the possibility that the universe itself always existed, (because by your logic your god would then have to have a creator)

don't make ***up because of your own shortcomings...

according to your *** god created the devil and evil itself and cancer so that's just stupid...

the bible is a work of FICTION that contradicts itself...it's entirety is invalidated...also correlation doesn't not imply causation...

no, evidence follows only one criteria: something that can be observed in some manner, disillusion or misinterpretation of reality are not evidence at all...

Jet, you are always such a purporter of logic, I just wanted to throw its definition in here.

Logic- the science that investigates the principles governing correct or reliable inference.

-a particular method of reasoning or argumentation

-the system or principles of reasoning applicable to any branch of knowledge or study.

-reason or sound judgment, as in utterances or actions

-convincing forcefulness; inexorable truth or persuasiveness


A core feature of its definition is a reasoning, or a method weighing against deduction. Logic, could therein, be used to describe the possibility of existence of something for which there is no proof of. I completely agree with you, that logic would have no part in an argument for the absolute existence of something for which there is no proof of.

I try because these are the questions I have asked myself over the last couple years.

I was never really 'religious' by any stretch of the imagination (I was the kid sneaking Pokemon during service) but I have been around a religious family and saw the toxic nature of religion rear it's ugly head infrequently and this is partly why I decided to look deeper into religion and how I eventually reached my point of disbelief.

I'd be lying if I said 9/11 didn't bother me as well but most New Yorkers have their 9/11 story.

Another point I've not seen touched on this forum is the appeal to emotion from many theists. I know some people who only cling to their religious belief because of the idea of being 'covered' by some higher power interested in their fate. They've long thrown away the ideas of the religion's core beliefs but still believe 'something' is looking out for them because well... it's cool to have someone with awesome powers looking out for you.

Personally, I see nothing wrong with this (so long as it doesn't tell you to harm people) but is 'God' then merely a projection of yourself? Like an imaginary friend for adults? Someone you speak to for advice and to confide in? It'd go a long way to explain why 'God' almost always agrees with some individuals thoughts.

I believe some call this being *insert the popular God of a region here* to avoid being called crazy by their peers.

I thought of that when I said it, I didn't really expect anyone to catch it. I'll go edit.

Right out of the gate you've eliminated all of the polytheistic pantheons that have graced our Earth. Why? Could the almighty creator of the universe not have been a set of creators?

How can you so simply write off belief systems with hundreds of years worth of devoted adherents? We know that Judaism and Christianity are practically seamless but what about everyone else who lived outside the Middle East for thousands of years? Were they just completely off course in their beliefs?

Further, what about the humans who made life for themselves in the Americas prior to European discovery? Were those people just unlucky to have their first run in with Christians through warfare, conquest and eventually utter destruction? It is impossible to say these people believed in anything similar to Jesus because they'd have had no idea who he was and what his goal on this planet was as per Christian teachings. Even today you've got people in remote ideas with their unique beliefs in higher entities.

So I have to ask myself, would God have really doomed these people to annihilation simply to allow Christianity to spread across the Atlantic? Why were these people not contacted? Hell, why weren't the Chinese and Japanese contacted? They were on the Eurasian continent doing their thing for many centuries and had their own belief systems (like Shintoism) they believed to be the truth.

Many of us are only aware of Christian teachings because the bitterly hated Roman Empire adopted the religion and spread it around. Had this little thing not happened, we could all be here today discussing some other religion that took hold instead.

So to put it short, what makes you so sure?

With unanswerable questions come illogical answers.

But you can catch the most with dog poo.

LOL! Very true. This thread has degenerated into slinging dog poo anyway.

/sigh

It was fun while it lasted.

Enough.