Ninja's Back Me Up

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Ninja's back me up
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 Asura.Bonlack
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By Asura.Bonlack 2011-11-27 08:28:02
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Basically had a guy tell me, I need should use a goading belt > twilight on my nin. I asked why and he said for stp/enmity. So i asked him if he thought missing haste cap losing 2% haste/DA was worth minimal stp and enmity. He said anything over the actual in game value is a waste which i agree but its impossible to hit the actual in game value w/o going over. he's sitting at 23% haste while im at cap. Back me up on this if you think its crazy to use goading for anything less then a night time/tank set unless yiou have dusk+1.
 Fenrir.Leoheart
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By Fenrir.Leoheart 2011-11-27 08:32:07
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A nin without capped haste is dead to me.

Don't use goading lol
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 Asura.Ina
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By Asura.Ina 2011-11-27 08:39:02
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The double attack would win out over the enmity + stp either way, so even if going over cap use twilight over goading. If looking to swap something out then I think feet are the best bet (usu feet, more stp and enmity then goading while still maintaining 26% haste which is what you actually need to cap) with af2 feet macroed in for utsu. Again though, remind him that double attack > stp/enmity.
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 Sylph.Annex
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By Sylph.Annex 2011-11-27 09:35:29
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Also sTP does very little for dual wielding jobs if I am not mistaken. STP really counts on 2H jobs, RNG, and COR.
 Asura.Tamoa
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By Asura.Tamoa 2011-11-27 09:36:25
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Tell that guy to get lost, lol. Capped haste + DA = increased ws frequency = mob dies faster.

I guess you can macro in goading for voke or something.
 Siren.Seiri
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By Siren.Seiri 2011-11-27 10:13:07
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Sylph.Annex said: »
Also sTP does very little for dual wielding jobs if I am not mistaken. STP really counts on 2H jobs, RNG, and COR.

Wrong, although this is a common idea.

Store tp is a direct percentage increase to tp per hit, allowing for a decrease in the number of hits required to hit 100tp.

Yes, usually this is applied to 2h weapons, but can be equally applied to single handers also. For certain, going from say a 14 hit to a 12 hit doesn't sound as impressive as going from a 7 hit to a 6 hit, but it has the same effect on tp speed.

Edit: Back on topic, the guy is still a retard, tell him to quit and fail at rl where he cant bother you.
 Bismarck.Altar
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By Bismarck.Altar 2011-11-27 10:16:35
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Sylph.Annex said: »
Also sTP does very little for dual wielding jobs if I am not mistaken. STP really counts on 2H jobs, RNG, and COR.

Not sure why this is such a common misconception. If anything you should argue that it's better for Jobs with powerful WS, but not necessarily 2H.
 Phoenix.Kirana
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By Phoenix.Kirana 2011-11-27 10:21:12
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It takes a large amount of STP to make a notable difference on ANY job. However, dual wielders can make a small improvement using a small amount of STP while 2handers cannot. That is the only difference.
 Carbuncle.Joeywheeler
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By Carbuncle.Joeywheeler 2011-11-27 10:56:00
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Tell that guy do a full stp set with no haste, he'll win the game.
 Fenrir.Enternius
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By Fenrir.Enternius 2011-11-27 11:02:42
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Bismarck.Altar said: »
Sylph.Annex said: »
Also sTP does very little for dual wielding jobs if I am not mistaken. STP really counts on 2H jobs, RNG, and COR.

Not sure why this is such a common misconception. If anything you should argue that it's better for Jobs with powerful WS, but not necessarily 2H.
Not necessarily true either. The reason people believe sTP isn't useful for dual wield jobs is because most of their damage output comes from the TPing. Gearing for WS on a job that gets a majority of their damage out of the TP phase is a bit counterproductive.
 Bismarck.Altar
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By Bismarck.Altar 2011-11-27 11:06:13
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Fenrir.Enternius said: »
Bismarck.Altar said: »
Sylph.Annex said: »
Also sTP does very little for dual wielding jobs if I am not mistaken. STP really counts on 2H jobs, RNG, and COR.

Not sure why this is such a common misconception. If anything you should argue that it's better for Jobs with powerful WS, but not necessarily 2H.
Not necessarily true either. The reason people believe sTP isn't useful for dual wield jobs is because most of their damage output comes from the TPing. Gearing for WS on a job that gets a majority of their damage out of the TP phase is a bit counterproductive.

Well, thats what I was implying when I said jobs with a powerful ws. A more powerful ws is likely going to have a higher ws:tp split, in which case stp becomes more important.
 Odin.Upbeat
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By Odin.Upbeat 2011-11-27 11:27:09
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Who needs haste?! Obviously this is the best set for NIN:
6 hit Ihintanto build >.>
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 Fenrir.Enternius
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By Fenrir.Enternius 2011-11-27 11:29:19
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Odin.Upbeat said: »
Who needs haste?! Obviously this is the best set for NIN:
6 hit Ihintanto build >.>
Should look more like this

 Odin.Upbeat
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By Odin.Upbeat 2011-11-27 11:46:28
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6-hit Numbing/Slug shot build.

Just on a side note SE really needs to give NIN more guns, Coffinmaker is still the best.
 Carbuncle.Joeywheeler
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By Carbuncle.Joeywheeler 2011-11-27 11:47:08
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Fenrir.Enternius said: »
Odin.Upbeat said: »
Who needs haste?! Obviously this is the best set for NIN:
6 hit Ihintanto build >.>
Should look more like this


Eh, Kinda missing his Stp setup point.

But lol @ KC+Mkris.
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By KothoftheHammer 2011-11-27 12:20:59
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When Koga tekko becomes 4% haste you can demote your belt


but don't.
28% haste like a rockstar.
 Valefor.Caelir
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By Valefor.Caelir 2011-11-27 12:46:27
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it really depends on what your other gear slot have. you can hit 26% in gear is your using af3+2 head/legs/feet + goading and dusk +1.
 Asura.Kaisuko
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By Asura.Kaisuko 2011-11-27 12:52:15
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It's not a matter of if you *can* use goading. The 2% DA will always beat STP/Enmity for NIN. So trying to get a set up where you'll be able to use it is pointless. If you need enmity in your TP set then you have other issues you need to address.
 Asura.Tamoa
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By Asura.Tamoa 2011-11-27 12:58:52
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Or:

1. AF3 +2 head, feet, legs, twilight belt and ocelot gloves
2. AF3 +2 head, feet, byakkos haidate, twilight belt and dusk gloves +1
3. AF3 +2 head, legs, twilight belt, usukane feet and dusk gloves +1

I think I'd use one of those combinations and not drop twilight belt. I use the 3rd option myself.
 Valefor.Caelir
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By Valefor.Caelir 2011-11-27 13:06:55
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well there are lots of factors to take into account.

like right now im using goading over twilight because i get 10tp an attack round with it, without im sitting at 9tp which means its an extra attack round to get to 100tp.

once i get usu feet (missing 15) i'll switch over to option 3 above which i believe is the optimal set as far as nin TP goes.
 Valefor.Prothescar
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By Valefor.Prothescar 2011-11-27 13:08:25
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Improper use of apostrophe detected.
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 Asura.Kaisuko
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By Asura.Kaisuko 2011-11-27 13:17:49
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Valefor.Caelir said: »
well there are lots of factors to take into account.

like right now im using goading over twilight because i get 10tp an attack round with it, without im sitting at 9tp which means its an extra attack round to get to 100tp.

once i get usu feet (missing 15) i'll switch over to option 3 above which i believe is the optimal set as far as nin TP goes.
If you give up Twilight for Goading you're still making a mistake whether or not it's effecting your hit build. As it's been mentioned, Nin has a higher TP:WS ratio, so you're losing in the end without capped haste.
 Valefor.Caelir
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By Valefor.Caelir 2011-11-27 13:21:36
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i have capped haste........
 Asura.Kaisuko
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By Asura.Kaisuko 2011-11-27 13:29:13
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Valefor.Caelir said: »
i have capped haste........
If you're using proper Dual Wield gear then the +5 STP shouldn't push your hit build up to 10tp/hit. Which means you'll be attacking slower and as I just said NIN has a Higher TP:WS frequency so you'll be wanting to focus on that more. Not to still mention you're losing 2% DA.
 Bismarck.Altar
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By Bismarck.Altar 2011-11-27 13:38:08
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Not a ninja, but with his gear setup and starting from zero tp, the 5stp from Goading takes him from needing 23 hits total down to 22.

Edit: Blade Hi seems to be a 1 hit ws, so including tp from ws it goes from 21 hits down to 20 with 5stp on goading
 Ifrit.Darkanaseur
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By Ifrit.Darkanaseur 2011-11-27 13:42:00
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Asura.Kaisuko said: »
It's not a matter of if you *can* use goading. The 2% DA will always beat STP/Enmity for NIN. So trying to get a set up where you'll be able to use it is pointless. If you need enmity in your TP set then you have other issues you need to address.

People are really overvaluing DA, and ignoring diminishing returns. Dropping a hit and 2DA are almost equal in gains, higher if DA% is particularly high, and higher again the further your xhit drops.

That said, Usu Feet/Twilight belt is the correct answer.

Bismarck.Altar said: »
Blade Hi seems to be a 1 hit ws, so including tp from ws it goes from 21 hits down to 20 with 5stp on goading

Then there's the offhand hit, and DA/TA procs, the lower your Xhit goes, the greater the increase from dropping a further hit.
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 Odin.Rikiyame
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By Odin.Rikiyame 2011-11-27 13:45:13
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Valefor.Prothescar said: »
Improper use of comma detected.

Apostrophe.
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 Asura.Kaisuko
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By Asura.Kaisuko 2011-11-27 13:55:58
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Ifrit.Darkanaseur said: »
Asura.Kaisuko said: »
It's not a matter of if you *can* use goading. The 2% DA will always beat STP/Enmity for NIN. So trying to get a set up where you'll be able to use it is pointless. If you need enmity in your TP set then you have other issues you need to address.

People are really overvaluing DA, and ignoring diminishing returns. Dropping a hit and 2DA are almost equal in gains, higher if DA% is particularly high, and higher again the further your xhit drops.

That said, Usu Feet/Twilight belt is the correct answer.

Bismarck.Altar said: »
Blade Hi seems to be a 1 hit ws, so including tp from ws it goes from 21 hits down to 20 with 5stp on goading

Then there's the offhand hit, and DA/TA procs, the lower your Xhit goes, the greater the increase from dropping a further hit.
I'm not trying to over value DA, but with the current gear available for Nin they're not going to have a high amount of DA anyways, so the "diminishing returns" isn't going to be as high as you're making it out to be.
And you're still ignoring the fact that most of Nin's damage is coming from TP, which is what you want to be strengthening.
 Valefor.Prothescar
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By Valefor.Prothescar 2011-11-27 14:15:14
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Odin.Rikiyame said: »
Valefor.Prothescar said: »
Improper use of comma detected.

Apostrophe.

***.
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