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Message From the Admins
Cerberus.Tikal
Serveur: Cerberus
Game: FFXI
Posts: 4945
By Cerberus.Tikal 2011-11-03 18:22:00
Serveur: Valefor
Game: FFXI
Posts: 19647
By Valefor.Prothescar 2011-11-03 18:23:03
Sorry, had to step away for a few minutes (I'm still at work) and now that I'm back, I see 4 pages about some issue with PMs.
Again, I can only talk in the abstract because to be totally honest, I have no recollection of the thread in question anyway.
But users need to understand that there is no expectation of privacy in PMs among users. Your expectation of privacy is between you, and us: we're not going to proactively go snooping your conversations and reposting them publicly. First of all, that would just be rude, and second, we just don't have the time even if we wanted to.
But if you send something nasty, solacious, stalkeresque, creepy, or otherwise not okay to a given user, you should have the reasonable expectation that they will forward the conversation to us. We have ways of verifying the integrity of what has been reported.
If they turn around and post your weird-*** PM in public, well... I have to admit I'm not super sympathetic on the surface. But if it's personally damaging to the point that it becomes a form of reverse harassment, then we'll definitely step in, and have in the past.
Ok. So is Krizz posting the thread about the PM and the "threatening" allowed, and if so, are normal users allowed to post similar threads?
This thread
Btw, I'm not necessarily sympathizing with Flion, I could give two *** tbh. However, the way that this is being conducted from someone in a moderator's role seems rather distasteful.
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Ramuh.Vinvv
Serveur: Ramuh
Game: FFXI
Posts: 15542
By Ramuh.Vinvv 2011-11-03 18:24:58
Valefor.Prothescar said: »
Ok. So is Krizz posting the thread about the PM and the "threatening" allowed, and if so, are normal users allowed to post similar threads?
This thread
Btw, I'm not necessarily sympathizing with Flion, I could give two *** tbh. However, the way that this is being conducted from someone in a moderator's role seems rather distasteful. Check out this thread.
Cerberus.Savannah
Serveur: Cerberus
Game: FFXI
Posts: 7938
By Cerberus.Savannah 2011-11-03 18:24:59
Bismarck.Josiahkf said: »Bismarck.Josiahkf said: »37 people rated up Krizz's thread. 807 times the page was viewed. the only way that's a "majority" is if those 37 people all went back to the page 12+ times each
3142 have viewed what Jaerik had to say and there are 52 rate ups. Jaerik is a popular and well received figure amongst our community. Comparing rate ups to page views does not hold any meaning. it does when someone claims the majority favors something due to a lack of negativity being allowed
I just gave you a situation that casts doubt on the fact the majority agreed with you. The odds that those 37 people all went back to that page 12+ times is near impossible
I went to it 5 times today. 'Sup?
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Leviathan.Bimbam
Serveur: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
Posts: 159
By Leviathan.Bimbam 2011-11-03 18:25:30
Quote: he's probably not your daddy
Justin Bieber might be apparantly ;)
Ahh I crack myself up
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Serveur: Ramuh
Game: FFXI
Posts: 16303
By Ramuh.Sagittario 2011-11-03 18:25:52
Man you are blowing this way out of proportion Proth. It doesn't even concern you or anyone else.
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Lakshmi.Jaerik
Administrator
Serveur: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3834
By Lakshmi.Jaerik 2011-11-03 18:25:55
As for inconsistency in posts, etc, please don't attribute to malicious intent what can be attributed to simple oversight.
Neither admins nor mods are sitting in epic threads reading every post as it goes by. They can't be expected to. It just isn't their job.
They will drop in from time to time, and glance at the pages of posts before and after for awhile, and then go off and do something else. They can't sit there and read back through all 47 pages of whatever got posted since the last time they were here.
That simply means that sometimes, stuff gets overlooked. They simply didn't see it. If the previous posts got reported and nothing was done, then that's a problem. But in general, you simply can't assume that just because something was permitted on one page, and then was nuked on the next, that the moderator made any sort of conscious decision to be inconsistent.
Carbuncle.Lolserj
Serveur: Carbuncle
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2851
By Carbuncle.Lolserj 2011-11-03 18:26:42
you havent replied to my PM jaerik :(
Phoenix.Sehachan
Serveur: Phoenix
Game: FFXI
Posts: 13352
By Phoenix.Sehachan 2011-11-03 18:26:49
Valefor.Prothescar said: »Btw, I'm not necessarily sympathizing with Flion, I could give two *** tbh. However, the way that this is being conducted from someone in a moderator's role seems rather distasteful. This.
I'm not whiteknighting Flion. I haven't interacted with him much over the months I've been here. I'd have no reason.
And we're not even 'gagning up' on Krizz as you said Sav. We're voicing our concerns about the way some things are handled. Again, we understand rules, but don't always appreciate the way they are applied.
Asura.Fondue
Serveur: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2446
By Asura.Fondue 2011-11-03 18:26:57
Bismarck.Josiahkf said: »Cerberus.Savannah said: »Maybe they missed something? Maybe they didn't get a chance to read all of it at once? Maybe some people just don't care but clicked on it since it was from a mod?
You don't know, we don't know. Point is, Krizz took a precaution to nip a problem before it started to look negatively on him.
It's done, it's over. Quit your whining and move on with your lives. Flion is not your god....he's probably not your daddy....so their really isn't anything to be talking about anymore. I understand supporting krizz but there is no need to attack us if you don't agree Sav. What exactly do you think behaving like that will produce?
I mean what do you think the way youre acting is producing? you looking like a fool for one, I read threads and I never +1 anyone, I also support the op of this tread
your theory is dumb bro
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Ramuh.Krizz
Serveur: Ramuh
Game: FFXI
Posts: 23561
By Ramuh.Krizz 2011-11-03 18:27:32
Don't post for banned users. Especially when it bypasses the profanity filter.
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By slipispsycho 2011-11-03 18:28:23
Cerberus.Savannah said: »Maybe they missed something? Maybe they didn't get a chance to read all of it at once? Maybe some people just don't care but clicked on it since it was from a mod?
You don't know, we don't know. Point is, Krizz took a precaution to nip a problem before it started to look negatively on him.
It's done, it's over. Quit your whining and move on with your lives. Flion is not your god....he's probably not your daddy....so their really isn't anything to be talking about anymore. Want to say it, but don't.. Want to say it, but don't.
*** it, of course you would instantly jump to Krizz's defense. No one is saying Flion is our God, I don't even know why you felt the need to throw in the daddy part, but THERE is something to talk about, because the second anyone posted a thread about a PM they got (and he saw it), Krizz would shut it down, the second someone posted about a PM they got in an already existing thread, Krizz would shut it down, the second they made a thread about some BS drama with another user, Krizz would shut it down.
Yet because he's a mod he's just allowed to do that.
EDIT: Didn't specify, a PM involving inter-personal drama in some way or another.
Quetzalcoatl.Xueye
Serveur: Quetzalcoatl
Game: FFXI
Posts: 6386
By Quetzalcoatl.Xueye 2011-11-03 18:28:37
As I'm to understand, every time that someone is banned there is a post explaining why so the rest of the community does not do the same thing.
Why is this any different?
Cerberus.Savannah
Serveur: Cerberus
Game: FFXI
Posts: 7938
By Cerberus.Savannah 2011-11-03 18:28:42
I'm not attacking anyone. I didn't say names, I just said people need to quit whining about the moderation being done. God forbid anyone gets banned or topicbanned or anything deleted.
I've had stuff deleted...it happens. *shrugs*
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Serveur: Valefor
Game: FFXI
Posts: 19647
By Valefor.Prothescar 2011-11-03 18:28:43
Figured you would, posted anyway. Regardless,
Man you are blowing this way out of proportion Proth. It doesn't even concern you or anyone else.
Correct, so why in the name of *** was it posted to begin with?
Banning Flion and Sevourn was moderation. That is not being contested.
The ensuing thread was unnecessary.
Lakshmi.Jaerik
Administrator
Serveur: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3834
By Lakshmi.Jaerik 2011-11-03 18:29:20
Valefor.Prothescar said: »Ok. So is Krizz posting the thread about the PM and the "threatening" allowed, and if so, are normal users allowed to post similar threads?[/url]
That's a tough question. In the past, we had a blanket ban on any mod, admin, or user reposting in whole, or in part, any component of a private conversation.
But then users complained that our decisions to ban users based on threatening or harassing behavior over PMs was not transparent enough, and asked us to share that information where appropriate, especially if the user was now banned and the other was an admin or mod.
I don't know how to answer this. In general, there's nothing in the rules about someone reposting part of your PM conversation. There is no magical privacy rule. But there is a rule against harassment, and if someone is reposting a PM as part of an ongoing campaign to harass, intimidate, or otherwise belittle someone, it can be considered to fall into that umbrella rule.
Ramuh.Vinvv
Serveur: Ramuh
Game: FFXI
Posts: 15542
By Ramuh.Vinvv 2011-11-03 18:30:17
Cerberus.Savannah said: »Maybe they missed something? Maybe they didn't get a chance to read all of it at once? Maybe some people just don't care but clicked on it since it was from a mod?
You don't know, we don't know. Point is, Krizz took a precaution to nip a problem before it started to look negatively on him.
It's done, it's over. Quit your whining and move on with your lives. Flion is not your god....he's probably not your daddy....so their really isn't anything to be talking about anymore. Want to say it, but don't.. Want to say it, but don't.
*** it, of course you would instantly jump to Krizz's defense. No one is saying Flion is our God, I don't even know why you felt the need to throw in the daddy part, but THERE is something to talk about, because the second anyone posted a thread about a PM they got (and he saw it), Krizz would shut it down, the second someone posted about a PM they got in an already existing thread, Krizz would shut it down, the second they made a thread about some BS drama with another user, Krizz would shut it down.
Yet because he's a mod he's just allowed to do that. So you want a thread that is doomed to die in thread hell to be deleted just to appease your "IT'S NOT FAIR" complaints?
refer to this: Let us say for the case of the argument he got rid of it?
Would it really matter?
No.
Since people can't post on it other topics will take precedence and we'll forget about it.
Happens all the time.
So it's either we forget about it because it's been removed or we forget about it because it doesn't matter anymore...hmm.
Valefor.Prothescar said: »So suppose someone sent me a threatening PM saying they were going to expose my deepest, darkest secrets. And on top of that let's just say they add in lots and lots of other unpleasantness. Say I make a thread about this to protect myself from future backlash from the community.
I do not have a green bar. Will my post be deleted. Can you ban users?
Can you make posts explaining your bans of users?
The answer is no for both.
So you wouldn't really have as much of a point to make that post and would have made it strictly for dramas sake adding to that you can't lock posts either so it would become a possible posting frenzy.
So I mean..it's not really the same thing.
Fenrir.Didgist
Serveur: Fenrir
Game: FFXI
Posts: 291
By Fenrir.Didgist 2011-11-03 18:30:31
This whole "I've been wronged and my name is tarnished" outcry coming from a guy with a mule named Huttburt.
Lakshmi.Jaerik
Administrator
Serveur: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3834
By Lakshmi.Jaerik 2011-11-03 18:30:37
Carbuncle.Lolserj said: »you havent replied to my PM jaerik :( I have 27 to get through and haven't gotten to it yet.
I'm still at work. Monitoring this thread and contributing to it in semi-real-time is about the best I can manage right now.
Carbuncle.Lolserj
Serveur: Carbuncle
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2851
By Carbuncle.Lolserj 2011-11-03 18:31:15
Carbuncle.Lolserj said: »you havent replied to my PM jaerik :( I have 27 to get through and haven't gotten to it yet.
I'm still at work. Monitoring this thread and contributing to it in semi-real-time is about the best I can manage right now.
ah ok
Phoenix.Sehachan
Serveur: Phoenix
Game: FFXI
Posts: 13352
By Phoenix.Sehachan 2011-11-03 18:31:34
Don't post for banned users. Especially when it bypasses the profanity filter. This reply make your decision about that thread even worse.
Ramuh.Vinvv
Serveur: Ramuh
Game: FFXI
Posts: 15542
By Ramuh.Vinvv 2011-11-03 18:32:05
Don't post for banned users. Especially when it bypasses the profanity filter. This reply make your decision about that thread even worse. How so?
Ramuh.Krizz
Serveur: Ramuh
Game: FFXI
Posts: 23561
By Ramuh.Krizz 2011-11-03 18:32:39
Don't post for banned users. Especially when it bypasses the profanity filter. This reply make your decision about that thread even worse. I've been consistent in deleting posts users make to relay messages from banned users.
Phoenix.Sehachan
Serveur: Phoenix
Game: FFXI
Posts: 13352
By Phoenix.Sehachan 2011-11-03 18:33:31
Bah, running in circles around the point.
Asura.Fondue
Serveur: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2446
By Asura.Fondue 2011-11-03 18:33:32
when you are trying so hard to make a point, anything becomes relevant 8D
Serveur: Valefor
Game: FFXI
Posts: 19647
By Valefor.Prothescar 2011-11-03 18:33:47
I'm not even defending Flion or the tarnishing of names, I'm trying to understand why when we, the normal posters, post a thread similar to the one in question, it gets shut down, but it's perfectly fine for a moderator. The "BUT HE NEEDS TO KEEP HIS PUBLIC REPUTATION UP!!!1!!!111" argument doesn't fly.
Also the deletion of the post was expected, hopefully some people saw it first however.
We've had to do some painfully subjective bans over the past few days. I say painful because they are bans that were made due to cumulative, subjective issues with certain users over months and years, and not single infractions that broke the camel's back. (So to speak.)
These are always extremely difficult calls to make, and by our internal policies can only be made by an admin -- not a mod -- because they're a subjective judgement call made for the health of the site and not due to violations of any particular forum rule.
These events are extremely rare. In the entire site's ~5 year history, I can count the number of these bans we have made on one hand. This is because making bans for subjective reasons that aren't backed up by specific rule infractions harm the users' overall perception of our integrity and consistency. If we can nuke some guy for no specific reason, what's to say that you aren't next?
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Our moderation is short-staffed. It has been for awhile. This is mostly due to the fact that everyone I have approached about the job who I feel is qualified (I can share my requirements later if you're interested, but that's another post) has turned me down.
Honestly, this is expected: the people who are sane enough to understand the nature of the position and the thankless level of responsibility are typically too sane to accept the offer.
Being a moderator is thankless, strenuous, and altogether pretty awful. The fact you only appear out of the woodwork when something has gone wrong, plus general human mental quirks around confirmation bias, means that the more you do your job, the more you will inevitably become associated with being the bad guy. You must constantly fight this perception, and it requires skill, diplomacy, training, and a certain level of self-critical diligence and effort that is often unreasonable to expect from volunteers.
I have gotten a lot of feedback about heavy-handedness among some of our moderation staff, and you'll just have to trust that I have taken it to heart. But I believe all of our moderators are doing the best job they can within the limitations of the rules we have imposed upon them. We need to work on consistency and avoiding the perception of favoritism. When favoritism appears to occur, users can't always be expected to give us the benefit of the doubt and understand there is almost always non-public, extenuating circumstances that have caused it.
I ask that you believe me when I say that we're working on it.
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That being said:
Users need to understand that our mods are limited in their powers. They cannot perform perma-bans, nor temp-bans without providing lengthy documentation and evidence. Even then, there are typically threads about the user in the Moderator forum that involve every mod, and every admin, and frequently run to many pages before a decision is made. Just about the only decision a moderator is allowed to make in a vacuum is a topic ban, and even then, I'm pushing towards using them less and less as a disciplinary tool in general.
Why do I tell you this? Because I get a lot of complaints about a single moderator, attributing blatant, dictatorial, vengeance-driven behavior and permanent, ruthless disciplinary action that they simply do not have the power to take even if they wanted to. This tends to make me skeptical and dismissive of the overall claims even if there are nuggets of truth buried in there, because I start to distrust the reliability and intentions of the messenger.
We site admins have a famously low tolerance for drama. We have no interest whatsoever in investigating who said what to who, who exaggerated what about what situation, who has an agenda against which user clique, who's spreading rumors about what relationship, or any of that.
We run a FFXI and FFXIV gaming site, of which the forums are one small component of the overall operation. There isn't enough you could pay any of us to keep track of all that drama, and if you try and play games with the moderators or admins based on any of it, the admins are quite likely to just advise nuking every affected party so we don't have to waste our available free time and precious sanity tracking down who's saying what about who. That's time and effort we could be spending on making the site more useful for everyone else.
This isn't me being mean, or lazy, or dismissive. This is practical reality. We aren't on these forums all day like you guys. We simply can't keep up. There aren't enough hours in the day.
And that's just the admins! Moderators are all volunteer, so they have even less of a reason to do so. Frankly, I'm amazed they haven't all told us to go to hell by now.
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This means that if we end up getting a group of users who are consistently the source of reams upon reams of stacked-up drama every time we visit the site... users who consistently tiptoe right up to the edge of the rules and then fill our Inboxes with reports, complaints, bizarre-ass interpersonal drama about relationships and stalking and disagreements and sniping, etc, eventually an admin (like me) is just going to make the call to nuke them just to keep us all sane. It simply isn't worth it.
There is a cut-off of diminishing returns such that your contributions to the forum are not worth the sheer effort it takes to keep you around. It's nothing personal. No harm, no foul. There's the door.
I've recently made this call about two elder users. Banning Sevourn and Flionheart was my call -- not our moderators' -- so you can stop sending me PM's alleging forty different drama-filled conspiratorial interpersonal narratives about how or why a certain moderator would have done so. You just make yourself look like part of the problem.
Like I said, the number of bans we've made like this in the half-decade the site has been around can be counted on one hand. In both cases, the record of warnings, topic bans, temp bans, perma-bans-and-pardons, etc number several pages of text in the user's account notes.
So please do not freak out that suddenly the red-barred ban hammer is going to come down on your head with zero warning. We don't operate that way. And we're not going to start flipping out and banning people out of sheer frustration alone.
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But you need to realize that the smooth operation of this site is a partnership. I need my mods to be consistent, polite, diplomatic, and patient. If they aren't doing that, I still need to know. Please continue to report your concerns. Your feedback is always taken to heart, even if it's just tucked away into a corner of the admins' heads for future consideration and does not result in immediately action until I get enough consistent complaints to make a case.
But I need my users to avoid twisting themselves into impossibly complex, nasty Gordion Knot relationships, while engaging in moderator-backed efforts to destroy one another's reputation and credibility, and then running to an admin when it blows up in your face. It's important that we all establish realistic expectations of what we can expect from you, and what you can expect from us.
Everyone needs to take a few steps away, and breathe.
Thanks.
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