|
Message From the Admins
Carbuncle.Tweeek
Serveur: Carbuncle
Game: FFXI
Posts: 732
By Carbuncle.Tweeek 2011-11-03 18:03:42
how is that a player warning?
Phoenix.Sehachan
Serveur: Phoenix
Game: FFXI
Posts: 13352
By Phoenix.Sehachan 2011-11-03 18:04:13
We're not necessarily defending Flion nor "attacking" Krizz for his actions. We're simply noting that making a public thread based on PM based blackmail/threats based on some outside context of something that happened five months ago is not only unnecessary, but simply generates further drama by exposing it to the public. This. This! THIS!
Serveur: Valefor
Game: FFXI
Posts: 19647
By Valefor.Prothescar 2011-11-03 18:04:39
We're not necessarily defending Flion nor "attacking" Krizz for his actions. We're simply noting that making a public thread based on PM based blackmail/threats based on some outside context of something that happened five months ago is not only unnecessary, but simply generates further drama by exposing it to the public.
This, and the fact that it is completely hypocritical.
Ramuh.Vinvv
Serveur: Ramuh
Game: FFXI
Posts: 15542
By Ramuh.Vinvv 2011-11-03 18:06:29
Could just throw it over onto the mod forum rather than deleting it too!
Serveur: Ramuh
Game: FFXI
Posts: 16303
By Ramuh.Sagittario 2011-11-03 18:06:32
We're not necessarily defending Flion nor "attacking" Krizz for his actions. We're simply noting that making a public thread based on PM based blackmail/threats based on some outside context of something that happened five months ago is not only unnecessary, but simply generates further drama by exposing it to the public.
So if he had chosen to not expose it, then Flion had one of his clique expose it instead, can you imagine the shstorm that would ensue. I guarantee you Krizz would be labeled as having a vendetta against Flion before even having a chance to jusitfy the content. By doing it this way, he can at least inform you of the situation rather than have to defend himself against angry users with a mislead preconception of what actually happened.
By Artemicion 2011-11-03 18:06:41
I gotta go to work.
Before I go I just wanna say thank you to all Mods/Admins for making this place a nice place to post and get invaluable information.
See you all later tonight.
And to ease the weight of the tension here, here are some fluffy kittens.
Ragnarok.Corvinus
Serveur: Ragnarok
Game: FFXI
Posts: 84
By Ragnarok.Corvinus 2011-11-03 18:06:44
I don't know, but that thread of Krizz's seems to have a lot of [+] seems like the majority online atm reading these threads agrees and is happy with this decision and/or his post.
Bahamut.Serj
Serveur: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 6179
By Bahamut.Serj 2011-11-03 18:07:25
Ragnarok.Corvinus said: »I don't know, but that thread of Krizz's seems to have a lot of [+] seems like the majority online atm reading these threads agrees and is happy with this decision and/or his post.
Check the people who liked it.
Cerberus.Savannah
Serveur: Cerberus
Game: FFXI
Posts: 7938
By Cerberus.Savannah 2011-11-03 18:07:37
If you don't like the rules...don't post.
If you don't like the moderation...don't do something stupid that's going to get you in trouble. Send a PM to a mod/admin and they'll review whatever the issue is.
If you don't like another player...block them.
Ta~da. Everyone's happy.
VIP
Serveur: Siren
Game: FFXI
Posts: 14552
By Siren.Kalilla 2011-11-03 18:08:01
Yay kittens! :3
Cya Artemicion!
Valefor.Lieniite
Serveur: Valefor
Game: FFXI
Posts: 364
By Valefor.Lieniite 2011-11-03 18:08:30
But it's worse than threatening someone with blackmail about something from 5 months ago?
I really don't understand how people can be more upset about a thread, explaining why a known trouble maker was banned...a trouble maker who is threatening to blackmail/"expose" someone.
Really guys, your bias is showing...
[+]
Ragnarok.Corvinus
Serveur: Ragnarok
Game: FFXI
Posts: 84
By Ragnarok.Corvinus 2011-11-03 18:08:59
Keeping a site a live, I think is about numbers and majority. Not who.
Serveur: Valefor
Game: FFXI
Posts: 19647
By Valefor.Prothescar 2011-11-03 18:09:17
We're not necessarily defending Flion nor "attacking" Krizz for his actions. We're simply noting that making a public thread based on PM based blackmail/threats based on some outside context of something that happened five months ago is not only unnecessary, but simply generates further drama by exposing it to the public.
So if he had chosen to not expose it, then Flion had one of his clique expose it instead, can you imagine the shstorm that would ensue. I guarantee you Krizz would be labeled as having a vendetta against Flion before even having a chance to jusitfy the content. By doing it this way, he can at least inform you of the situation rather than have to defend himself against angry users with a mislead preconception of what actually happened.
It would change nothing. It has changed nothing. Anyone who does not enjoy Krizz's company (for the record I'm not one of these people, for the most part) will not have their opinion swayed, and it cannot be made worse, by that PM. Those who don't care won't care. Those who are with Krizz likely will not be swayed by it, and if they are then they're fickle. A public demonstration was unecessary and if anyone else had done it, it would have more than likely been cast down by the hand of god.
There's the same couple of people that are on his posts (for lack of a more PC term) every time. It's the exact same thing as any other "clique" on these boards. Moderator status should not entitle more posting rights.
[+]
Ramuh.Vinvv
Serveur: Ramuh
Game: FFXI
Posts: 15542
By Ramuh.Vinvv 2011-11-03 18:09:30
But it's worse than threatening someone with blackmail about something from 5 months ago?
I really don't understand how people can be more upset about a thread, explaining why a known trouble maker was banned...a trouble maker who is threatening to blackmail/"expose" someone.
Really guys, your bias is showing... Everyone's bias is showing because we all have bias. :D
[+]
Ragnarok.Neonracer
Serveur: Ragnarok
Game: FFXI
Posts: 411
By Ragnarok.Neonracer 2011-11-03 18:09:39
We're not necessarily defending Flion nor "attacking" Krizz for his actions. We're simply noting that making a public thread based on PM based blackmail/threats based on some outside context of something that happened five months ago is not only unnecessary, but simply generates further drama by exposing it to the public.
Krizz was only exposing it, so that it could/would make everyone be aware of what course of action would happen, if there was ever a recourse.
I'm sure that he has said umpteen times, and is tired of repeating the rules.
Serveur: Ramuh
Game: FFXI
Posts: 16303
By Ramuh.Sagittario 2011-11-03 18:10:02
Ragnarok.Corvinus said: »I don't know, but that thread of Krizz's seems to have a lot of [+] seems like the majority online atm reading these threads agrees and is happy with this decision and/or his post. Check the people who liked it.
Why is that relevant? 36 and growing is alot of people.
Phoenix.Sehachan
Serveur: Phoenix
Game: FFXI
Posts: 13352
By Phoenix.Sehachan 2011-11-03 18:10:03
We're not necessarily defending Flion nor "attacking" Krizz for his actions. We're simply noting that making a public thread based on PM based blackmail/threats based on some outside context of something that happened five months ago is not only unnecessary, but simply generates further drama by exposing it to the public.
So if he had chosen to not expose it, then Flion had one of his clique expose it instead, can you imagine the shstorm that would ensue. I guarantee you Krizz would be labeled as having a vendetta against Flion before even having a chance to jusitfy the content. By doing it this way, he can at least inform you of the situation rather than have to defend himself against angry users with a mislead preconception of what actually happened. You're blindly defending him. Mods make mistakes, green bar doesn't make them unerring.
Ragnarok.Corvinus said: »I don't know, but that thread of Krizz's seems to have a lot of [+] seems like the majority online atm reading these threads agrees and is happy with this decision and/or his post. They just approve Flion's ban.
Serveur: Ramuh
Game: FFXI
Posts: 16303
By Ramuh.Sagittario 2011-11-03 18:12:59
We're not necessarily defending Flion nor "attacking" Krizz for his actions. We're simply noting that making a public thread based on PM based blackmail/threats based on some outside context of something that happened five months ago is not only unnecessary, but simply generates further drama by exposing it to the public. So if he had chosen to not expose it, then Flion had one of his clique expose it instead, can you imagine the shstorm that would ensue. I guarantee you Krizz would be labeled as having a vendetta against Flion before even having a chance to jusitfy the content. By doing it this way, he can at least inform you of the situation rather than have to defend himself against angry users with a mislead preconception of what actually happened. You're blindly defending him. Mods make mistakes, green bar doesn't make them unerring. Ragnarok.Corvinus said: »I don't know, but that thread of Krizz's seems to have a lot of [+] seems like the majority online atm reading these threads agrees and is happy with this decision and/or his post. They just approve Flion's ban.
Of course I'm defending his decision because I think it is the right thing to do when you are threatened by that sort of action. How do you know the thoughts and reasoning of 36 people?
Serveur: Valefor
Game: FFXI
Posts: 19647
By Valefor.Prothescar 2011-11-03 18:14:46
So suppose someone sent me a threatening PM saying they were going to expose my deepest, darkest secrets. And on top of that let's just say they add in lots and lots of other unpleasantness. Say I make a thread about this to protect myself from future backlash from the community.
I do not have a green bar. Will my post be deleted.
[+]
Bahamut.Serj
Serveur: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 6179
By Bahamut.Serj 2011-11-03 18:15:08
We're not necessarily defending Flion nor "attacking" Krizz for his actions. We're simply noting that making a public thread based on PM based blackmail/threats based on some outside context of something that happened five months ago is not only unnecessary, but simply generates further drama by exposing it to the public. So if he had chosen to not expose it, then Flion had one of his clique expose it instead, can you imagine the shstorm that would ensue. I guarantee you Krizz would be labeled as having a vendetta against Flion before even having a chance to jusitfy the content. By doing it this way, he can at least inform you of the situation rather than have to defend himself against angry users with a mislead preconception of what actually happened. You're blindly defending him. Mods make mistakes, green bar doesn't make them unerring. Ragnarok.Corvinus said: »I don't know, but that thread of Krizz's seems to have a lot of [+] seems like the majority online atm reading these threads agrees and is happy with this decision and/or his post. They just approve Flion's ban.
Of course I'm defending his decision because I think it is the right thing to do when you are threatened by that sort of action. How do you know the thoughts and reasoning of 36 people?
The only people supporting it are people who disliked Flion. How ignorant can you act?
Phoenix.Sehachan
Serveur: Phoenix
Game: FFXI
Posts: 13352
By Phoenix.Sehachan 2011-11-03 18:15:20
Of course I'm defending his decision because I think it is the right thing to do when you are threatened by that sort of action. Tomorrow we will all start threads to defend ourselves in our personal battles against our e-enemies.
Ramuh.Vinvv
Serveur: Ramuh
Game: FFXI
Posts: 15542
By Ramuh.Vinvv 2011-11-03 18:15:32
Let us say for the case of the argument he got rid of it?
Would it really matter?
No.
Since people can't post on it other topics will take precedence and we'll forget about it.
Happens all the time.
So it's either we forget about it because it's been removed or we forget about it because it doesn't matter anymore...hmm.
Valefor.Prothescar said: »So suppose someone sent me a threatening PM saying they were going to expose my deepest, darkest secrets. And on top of that let's just say they add in lots and lots of other unpleasantness. Say I make a thread about this to protect myself from future backlash from the community.
I do not have a green bar. Will my post be deleted. Can you ban users?
Can you make posts explaining your bans of users?
The answer is no for both.
So you wouldn't really have as much of a point to make that post and would have made it strictly for dramas sake adding to that you can't lock posts either so it would become a possible posting frenzy.
So I mean..it's not really the same thing.
[+]
Asura.Fondue
Serveur: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2446
By Asura.Fondue 2011-11-03 18:15:52
Valefor.Prothescar said: »So suppose someone sent me a threatening PM saying they were going to expose my deepest, darkest secrets. And on top of that let's just say they add in lots and lots of other unpleasantness. Say I make a thread about this to protect myself from future backlash from the community.
I do not have a green bar. Will my post be deleted.
its not that sirius
Serveur: Ramuh
Game: FFXI
Posts: 16303
By Ramuh.Sagittario 2011-11-03 18:16:05
Bismarck.Josiahkf said: »37 people rated up Krizz's thread. 807 times the page was viewed. the only way that's a "majority" is if those 37 people all went back to the page 12+ times each
3142 have viewed what Jaerik had to say and there are 52 rate ups. Jaerik is a popular and well received figure amongst our community. Comparing rate ups to page views does not hold any meaning.
Serveur: Valefor
Game: FFXI
Posts: 19647
By Valefor.Prothescar 2011-11-03 18:17:50
Bismarck.Josiahkf said: »37 people rated up Krizz's thread. 807 times the page was viewed. the only way that's a "majority" is if those 37 people all went back to the page 12+ times each
3142 have viewed what Jaerik had to say and there are 52 rate ups. Jaerik is a popular and well received figure amongst our community. Comparing rate ups to page views does not hold any meaning.
Because there are 3,000 members on this website that post and rate posts. 60%+ of those are likely F5ing of anyone posting in this thread right now. What cause does someone have to read the other thread more than once?
Serveur: Ramuh
Game: FFXI
Posts: 16303
By Ramuh.Sagittario 2011-11-03 18:18:54
We're not necessarily defending Flion nor "attacking" Krizz for his actions. We're simply noting that making a public thread based on PM based blackmail/threats based on some outside context of something that happened five months ago is not only unnecessary, but simply generates further drama by exposing it to the public. So if he had chosen to not expose it, then Flion had one of his clique expose it instead, can you imagine the shstorm that would ensue. I guarantee you Krizz would be labeled as having a vendetta against Flion before even having a chance to jusitfy the content. By doing it this way, he can at least inform you of the situation rather than have to defend himself against angry users with a mislead preconception of what actually happened. You're blindly defending him. Mods make mistakes, green bar doesn't make them unerring. Ragnarok.Corvinus said: »I don't know, but that thread of Krizz's seems to have a lot of [+] seems like the majority online atm reading these threads agrees and is happy with this decision and/or his post. They just approve Flion's ban. Of course I'm defending his decision because I think it is the right thing to do when you are threatened by that sort of action. How do you know the thoughts and reasoning of 36 people? The only people supporting it are people who disliked Flion. How ignorant can you act?
So you happen to know that every one of those 36 people disliked Flion? I'm curious to know how you can know this?
Lakshmi.Jaerik
Administrator
Serveur: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3834
By Lakshmi.Jaerik 2011-11-03 18:20:08
Sorry, had to step away for a few minutes (I'm still at work) and now that I'm back, I see 4 pages about some issue with PMs.
Again, I can only talk in the abstract because to be totally honest, I have no recollection of the thread in question anyway.
But users need to understand that there is no expectation of privacy in PMs among users. Your expectation of privacy is between you, and us: we're not going to proactively go snooping your conversations and reposting them publicly. First of all, that would just be rude, and second, we just don't have the time even if we wanted to.
But if you send something nasty, solacious, stalkeresque, creepy, or otherwise not okay to a given user, you should have the reasonable expectation that they will forward the conversation to us. We have ways of verifying the integrity of what has been reported.
If they turn around and post your weird-*** PM in public, well... I have to admit I'm not super sympathetic on the surface. But if it's personally damaging to the point that it becomes a form of reverse harassment, then we'll definitely step in, and have in the past.
Cerberus.Savannah
Serveur: Cerberus
Game: FFXI
Posts: 7938
By Cerberus.Savannah 2011-11-03 18:21:52
Maybe they missed something? Maybe they didn't get a chance to read all of it at once? Maybe some people just don't care but clicked on it since it was from a mod?
You don't know, we don't know. Point is, Krizz took a precaution to nip a problem before it started to look negatively on him.
It's done, it's over. Quit your whining and move on with your lives. Flion is not your god....he's probably not your daddy....so their really isn't anything to be talking about anymore.
[+]
We've had to do some painfully subjective bans over the past few days. I say painful because they are bans that were made due to cumulative, subjective issues with certain users over months and years, and not single infractions that broke the camel's back. (So to speak.)
These are always extremely difficult calls to make, and by our internal policies can only be made by an admin -- not a mod -- because they're a subjective judgement call made for the health of the site and not due to violations of any particular forum rule.
These events are extremely rare. In the entire site's ~5 year history, I can count the number of these bans we have made on one hand. This is because making bans for subjective reasons that aren't backed up by specific rule infractions harm the users' overall perception of our integrity and consistency. If we can nuke some guy for no specific reason, what's to say that you aren't next?
---------------------
Our moderation is short-staffed. It has been for awhile. This is mostly due to the fact that everyone I have approached about the job who I feel is qualified (I can share my requirements later if you're interested, but that's another post) has turned me down.
Honestly, this is expected: the people who are sane enough to understand the nature of the position and the thankless level of responsibility are typically too sane to accept the offer.
Being a moderator is thankless, strenuous, and altogether pretty awful. The fact you only appear out of the woodwork when something has gone wrong, plus general human mental quirks around confirmation bias, means that the more you do your job, the more you will inevitably become associated with being the bad guy. You must constantly fight this perception, and it requires skill, diplomacy, training, and a certain level of self-critical diligence and effort that is often unreasonable to expect from volunteers.
I have gotten a lot of feedback about heavy-handedness among some of our moderation staff, and you'll just have to trust that I have taken it to heart. But I believe all of our moderators are doing the best job they can within the limitations of the rules we have imposed upon them. We need to work on consistency and avoiding the perception of favoritism. When favoritism appears to occur, users can't always be expected to give us the benefit of the doubt and understand there is almost always non-public, extenuating circumstances that have caused it.
I ask that you believe me when I say that we're working on it.
-------------------
That being said:
Users need to understand that our mods are limited in their powers. They cannot perform perma-bans, nor temp-bans without providing lengthy documentation and evidence. Even then, there are typically threads about the user in the Moderator forum that involve every mod, and every admin, and frequently run to many pages before a decision is made. Just about the only decision a moderator is allowed to make in a vacuum is a topic ban, and even then, I'm pushing towards using them less and less as a disciplinary tool in general.
Why do I tell you this? Because I get a lot of complaints about a single moderator, attributing blatant, dictatorial, vengeance-driven behavior and permanent, ruthless disciplinary action that they simply do not have the power to take even if they wanted to. This tends to make me skeptical and dismissive of the overall claims even if there are nuggets of truth buried in there, because I start to distrust the reliability and intentions of the messenger.
We site admins have a famously low tolerance for drama. We have no interest whatsoever in investigating who said what to who, who exaggerated what about what situation, who has an agenda against which user clique, who's spreading rumors about what relationship, or any of that.
We run a FFXI and FFXIV gaming site, of which the forums are one small component of the overall operation. There isn't enough you could pay any of us to keep track of all that drama, and if you try and play games with the moderators or admins based on any of it, the admins are quite likely to just advise nuking every affected party so we don't have to waste our available free time and precious sanity tracking down who's saying what about who. That's time and effort we could be spending on making the site more useful for everyone else.
This isn't me being mean, or lazy, or dismissive. This is practical reality. We aren't on these forums all day like you guys. We simply can't keep up. There aren't enough hours in the day.
And that's just the admins! Moderators are all volunteer, so they have even less of a reason to do so. Frankly, I'm amazed they haven't all told us to go to hell by now.
-------------------
This means that if we end up getting a group of users who are consistently the source of reams upon reams of stacked-up drama every time we visit the site... users who consistently tiptoe right up to the edge of the rules and then fill our Inboxes with reports, complaints, bizarre-ass interpersonal drama about relationships and stalking and disagreements and sniping, etc, eventually an admin (like me) is just going to make the call to nuke them just to keep us all sane. It simply isn't worth it.
There is a cut-off of diminishing returns such that your contributions to the forum are not worth the sheer effort it takes to keep you around. It's nothing personal. No harm, no foul. There's the door.
I've recently made this call about two elder users. Banning Sevourn and Flionheart was my call -- not our moderators' -- so you can stop sending me PM's alleging forty different drama-filled conspiratorial interpersonal narratives about how or why a certain moderator would have done so. You just make yourself look like part of the problem.
Like I said, the number of bans we've made like this in the half-decade the site has been around can be counted on one hand. In both cases, the record of warnings, topic bans, temp bans, perma-bans-and-pardons, etc number several pages of text in the user's account notes.
So please do not freak out that suddenly the red-barred ban hammer is going to come down on your head with zero warning. We don't operate that way. And we're not going to start flipping out and banning people out of sheer frustration alone.
-------------------
But you need to realize that the smooth operation of this site is a partnership. I need my mods to be consistent, polite, diplomatic, and patient. If they aren't doing that, I still need to know. Please continue to report your concerns. Your feedback is always taken to heart, even if it's just tucked away into a corner of the admins' heads for future consideration and does not result in immediately action until I get enough consistent complaints to make a case.
But I need my users to avoid twisting themselves into impossibly complex, nasty Gordion Knot relationships, while engaging in moderator-backed efforts to destroy one another's reputation and credibility, and then running to an admin when it blows up in your face. It's important that we all establish realistic expectations of what we can expect from you, and what you can expect from us.
Everyone needs to take a few steps away, and breathe.
Thanks.
|
|