Naruto Manga Thread [spoilers]

Speaking of Yamato.. he got taken so easily.. i'm hoping for a good plot twister in regards to Yamato lol.

Itachi still has the sword, though. Kabuto would have no way of knowing what happened to orochimaru during the Sasuke Vs. Itachi fight. Only that Sasuke took control of orochimaru. As to "half-power", since tobi only has the Sharigan(can he really even USE Mangekyou?) And Madara has Mangekyou+Rinnegan before he died. Maybe that's why he/itachi keeps saying he's at Half power?

I think it's a assumed Tobi can use Mangekyo, because he was able to extinguish Itachi's amaterasu trap he placed in Sasuke's eyes during their fight.

EDIT: I forgot. He must be able to, cause he places Konan under an illusion to get Nagato's corpse location, and then kill her as it ends.

EDIT again: or not? I forgot the whole first half of the Itachi/Sasuke fight was a genjutsu fest. and I don't believe Sasuke had Mangekyo activated yet.

Apparently, nothing Tobi has done that's Sharingan related is Mangekyo only. Even Izanagi can be done without a Mangekyo.

The trap was a one-time thing, I believe. And he could just use his space-time travel jutsu to remove that, easily.

Itachi has the sword yes, but take note Itachi was under Kabuto's impure resurection jutsu up until he fought naruto.. Kabuto teamed up with Tobi+Zetsu and zetsu i think recorded the battle so that info is available to kabuto.

Oh, good point. I forgot about that.

Agreed, He has to be someone of Madara's era just because Madara knows who it is, hence why he said "This is his doing...".

Tobi could have MS. How he put out the Amatarsu is unknown as he steps back into the darkness and than says that he is lucky he kept some info away from Itachi or else he'd be dead. Idk what that means. He does place Konan in an almost instant Genjutsu that get that info out of her it semens. And even Danzo had MS (Shisui's eye in his head) so maybe MS is a requirement for Izanagi just like Senju cells are. The biggest thing here is, he has tons of chakra so he shouldn't have problems using it. Maybe he has EMS and it's too much for him to use except once in a while? Idk. Maybe he isn't an Uchiha... so its hard for him to use it like Kakashi? On the other hand, Danzo said he had a day or so before he could reuse Shisui's eye but that was because of Senju blood otherwise it was one decade. There is a lot of weird ***with Sharingan, MS, and we really don't know ***about EMS. O_O

As for Tobi I only currently have 2 hypothesys, one made by me which I support and another very original one I read recently:

1) He is Izuna Uchiha, Madara's twin brother. I hypothyzed this loooong time ago. Who else could know Madara's secrets? What if Izuna didn't willingly "donate" his eyes to Madara? What if he has been condemned to exile by his brother so that he could pretend Izuna died in a battle and that he willingly donated his eyes to Madara? This would give him even more reasons than Madara had to control the world and destroy Konohagakure

2) Tobi is Madara, or well, a part of Madara, something Madara created with himself before dying, imbuing him with the order of "finding a way to revive Madara".
It's pretty expected for Tobi to be Madara or, generally speaking, to be someone else. Now that Kishimoto showed us the real Madara, his intent is to make us readers believe that Tobi couldn't possibly be Madara. Now that Kishimoto achieved that, it would be a pretty big surprise to find out that both, in some wicked way, are Madara.



P.S.
I find it hard to believe Tobi is either Obito or Shisui, unless we want to factor in time travels, and I hope this is not the case because it would suck.
Remember we saw Tobi during the birth of Naruto, in the Minato flashback? Unless that Tobi was a "different" Tobi which means there are or have been several Tobis, then both Shisui and Obito would have been way too young to be Tobi back then.

No lol.
Madara is one of the descendant of the Rikudorinne, we don't know how many years have passed since then but supposedly many centuries.
Rikudo Rinne had two sons fighting each other.
The first inherited the physical strenght of the Rikudorinne.
The second inherited his "magical" power.
First eventually gave birth to the Senju Clan, the second eventually gave birth to the Uchiha clan.

This story comes from chapters which came out over the last year I think, so pretty recent. It all would work out perfectly if only it wasn't for an old chapter during a tournament.
It's at the beginning of the manga, the author uses Kakashi to introduce us readers to the character of Neji, he actually tries to hype us readers about the power of Neji.
At the time we readers knew about the Sharingan already, so Kishimoto has Kakashi talk about how Byakugan's foretelling powers are even greater than Sharingan, since afterall Sharingan originally came as a variation of Byakugan, suggesting that Uchiha clan are descendants of the Hyuga clan.
This little aspect probably forgotten by the majority of us creates quite a bit of incoherence in the new picture Kishimoto created, since the Hyuga clan has been a co-primary for long time, way outside of the Senju/Uchiha dicotomy.


I've been thinking about that sentence quite a lot.
It can lead to several interpretations.
In the end I think the "HIS" in Kabuto's sentence refers to the same person the "HIS" in Madara's sentence refers to.
That is: Tobi, or rather his real identity.

Madara's little brother, Izuna, is dead. I actually think it's a confirmed fact. D:

http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Kagami_Uchiha

It's Tobi who tells the readers, by telling it to Sasuke, that Izuna died in battle soon after he willingly gave his eyes to Madara.
But at the time he was clearly pretending to be Madara to manipulate Sasuke, among other goals.
So it wouldn't be so strange for him to say that, would it?

It's like everything Tobi told us so far. We know there's a part of truth, we know there's a part of lies.
We just can't spot which is which :)

The more I read all this stuff and the more I realize that I've forgotten characters, confused others and have no *** clue who some even are.

Kagami is surely a more likely hypothesys than Shisui or Obito are, imho.
Age would fit and it woudln't be so random after all, he was in a very important ninja group where every single member eventually became an important ninja.

Still, Kishimoto would have to get quite creative as to create reasons why Kagami hates Konohagakure and wants to mindcontrol the world, and to explain how Kagami knows so detailedly all those things than only Madara could possibly know.
Not saying Kishimoto cannot do this, just that he would have to work more, whereas with Izuna he has half the job already done :D

Oh another detail I remembered that enforces my hypothesys. Itachi told Sasuke that Madara stripped his brother of his eyes, while Tobi tells Sasuke that Izuna willingly gave his eyes to Madara for the good of the clan.
Who is wrong? Who is right? ^^

I actually mentioned that way earlier in a post. The databooks said that, "Izuna died shortly after the surgery in battle." it doesn't give much detail but, what I get from that is--

He gave them up willingly to his brother, the leader of the clan, so that they could continue to fight the Senju. He then later dies in battle either because or not because his eyes were gone. Madara says to Sasuke when mentioning this that his entire clan wanted to team up with the Senju to form Konoha, but he didn't want to because of the sacrifice his brother made, however he went with it because it's what his clan wanted. It is than later revealed that his clan didn't trust him because they thought it was his greed that led to him attacking and killing his brother, and removing his eyes. This is what I believe started the rumor that leads to Itachi's "info" on Uchiha Madara, nothing but rumors. HOWEVER, the databook clearly says that he gave them up willingly and then later died in battle.

http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Izuna_Uchiha

References
↑ 1.0 1.1 Third Databook, page 33


I used to be a hardcore student of the Naruto series before I graduated. :|

This is what Tobi says to Sasuke after the Itachi fight.
Itachi says Madara TOOK the eyes out of his brother Izuna.
Clearly one of them is lying, the point is: who?
Both had good reasons to be lying at the respective times, since both were trying to manipulate Sasuke.

Yes, I agree.
It all would make perfect sense if Tobi was Madara, but is he?
And if he's not, clearly we cannot trust what he told Sasuke, especially because back then he was manipulating Sasuke.
We readers know that PART of what he told Sasuke is a lie, we just don't know how much.
An example? He said that the Fox attacking Konohagakure was a "natural accident".
From the Minato flashback we know that it was totally not :P


Lol is it my fault I forced you to say this? Sorry! I didn't want to look arrogant or to "impose" my hypothesys to anybody else! Really sorry if I gave that impression.
I just enjoy discussing about Naruto and sharing my thoughts/ideas :)
About the databook you're right but let's suppose for a second that Izuna is Tobi.
Were you Kishimoto, would you give a hint about it in the databook? Or would you keep trying to deceive the readers? (and we all know how Kishimoto is good with deceiving readers :D)

Ok. Something I just realized. This has nothing to really do what we are talking about... but does anyone figure that Sharingan > MS > EMS > Rinnegan and rumor has it that the Byakugan is some how thrown into that. Well the whole Sharingan evolution into the Rinnegan makes sense. The Sage of the 6 paths gave his older son his eyes. Maybe the Sage of the Six Paths. I don't remember where I say it-- but it was a Rinnegan/Sharingan mix of the Rinnegan but with Tomoe on the circles around the pupil. I forgot what chapter and I can't find it but maybe the Sage's blood is just that. A man with the Senju body and Uchiha's eyes. It was because of his creation ability that he was able to seprate this to his sons, and give the older the eyes (Sharingan) and his younger son his body (Senju) this we know, but what we didn't know was that the Rinnegan = Sharingan.

Now what does this mean? That Nagato is either a mutation of the Senju clan (Because Tobi revealed that he was in the Uzumaki clan, which is tied to the Senju clan) or because he had the Senju's body he could better control the Rinnegan, so Tobi gave it to him at some point. Now what I don't get from here is the need to take back the eyes. Maybe the original eyes, upon death, got locked into a Rinnegan, kinda like how Kakashi's Sharingan constantly remains on. But what I gather from this is a eye to Rinnegan eye lock instead of going though the stages of eye > Sharingan > MS > EMS > Rinnegan. However it seems to me that we don't know enough so maybe Madara can go from eye to Rinnegan or Sharingan to Rinnegan or maybe only EMS to Rinnegan. Now, this is important to determine because mutations (as far as I'm aware) that act the same, must follow the same pattern. However, if implanted it would react different to different people. Which leads back to the first question, why did Tobi take back the eyes. Obivoisly some how Nagato was able to duplicate the eyes. In his summons and in his 6 paths. Is this a power that only the original have? It must be. The original eyes must be the link to powering the other eyes thus, making any copies useless to someone else. Thus, he needed to give the original eyes to Nagato.

Now, who's eyes are they? Think it's safe to say they were the original eyes of Madara. I don't exactly know what this means but it's a conclusion I've come to think is only possible... but with so little info on all this stuff, who knows...

http://www.mangareader.net/93-44811-10/naruto/chapter-478.html

Bottom left should remove Orochimaru as suspected Tobi.

Edit: it seems with the power of Izanagi Madara 'may' have been able to keep himself alive this long, but him losing his eyes would make it somewhat hard to believe.

Not saying you're wrong, but I personally gave a different interpretation to it.
The eyes on the owner (Nagato) were the real ones. The eyes on the 6 Rinne Tensei were just a "manifestation" of Nagato's power who was injecting his chakra in the Rinne Tensei.
It just like... the eyes of the Rinne Tensei puppet become that way once they get controlled through the technique.

It's the same interpretation I gave to Tobi's Rinne Tensei.
He controls the 6 jinchuuriki through Rinne Tensei, and hence their eyes became like Rinnegan, but he manually implanted a Sharingan (from his huuuuge stock :P) on the other eye after the Rinne Tensei had already been activated.


Of course the last chapter sugests us there may be different interpretations.
I don't consider Rinnegan an evolution to EMS though, more like Madara was so powerful he managed to climb back his "genetical inheritance" and managed to awake the power of the Rikudo Rinne inheritance.
Something that EMS helped to achieve maybe, but that may not be necessary.
For example... Naruto may evolve into Rinnegan as well (god! I hope not!) climbing up his genetical inheritance from the Senju clan, and he doesn't have EMS.

So, to explain once more, it's something possible by very powerful being because of their being heir of the Rikudo Rinne, not because of EMS.
EMS helps making you "a powerful being", not obtaining Rinnegan.
So Rinengan is not a direct "evolution" of EMS.


Just my personal view on the whole thing of course.

Here is the thing. The databook is very clever on how to reveals info about people. For example, there has always been a separate article for Madara and Tobi. This kinda slipped though the cracks but it was always something that interested me and made my friend in AVID Tobi is not *** Madara protester. I for one, had no clue why this was like that. I thought maybe it was just Kishimoto's way of separating Tobi from Madara as a character that Madara just played to infiltrate his own organization, but with most people the Mask = Tobi altogether and anything Tobi as a masked man says is Tobi and must be lumped in with all the stuff he is doing now until he takes off the mask. I thought this was ridiculous but I don't know... I mean for gosh sakes he took off the mask to Sasuke (the trigger Itachi put in to activate at the site of Madara's Sharingan) he took it off to Kisame, who had SEEN Madara or (Tobi) before hand as the man who was behind Yagura, who he called the Mizukage (From the Shadows) so I for one thought the mask = his way of hiding he was Madara, thus he had to be. Other argued the mask = his way of hiding that he WASN'T Madara, this he couldn't be. It really very interesting when you get down to it.

Now what does this mean? Why am I quoting you? Because the databook never lies. This is the thing given to use to confirm and learn things said in the manga and not said in the manga. It's how we got all the info that we know about Kakuzu and Hidan. Now, it says CLEARLY that Izuna gave them up of his free will and that he later dies in battle. In fact, his coffin in shown in both the manga and anime in both Itachi's and Madara's flashback. Thus, he can't be Tobi. It really doesn't matter how his eyes were removed, (Though, willingly by himself) I'm just trying to say, that your first hypotheses is whack and can't be. The second is much more likely.

Now as to him manipulating Sasuke, that nor here or there. Sure he "lied" and said that the Kyubi attack was a natural disaster, but everyone in the history of time also called anytime he attacked a natural disaster, so tech he wasn't lying. Most of the people of Konoha think it was a natural disaster. Later, they suspected the Uchiha for good reason (seeing as how it was an "Uchiha" that did it or someone who had the Sharingan.) this was their biggest reason for wanting to betray Konoha.

Now, the databook would simply omit data on Izuna if he wanted to later use it. It omitted TONS of data on Madara, I think there wasn't even a deceased thing on him leading people to say "zomg that proof that he is alive and that tobi is him and balahahalhalha". So idk.

The thing about that is. The Sage separated his own bloodline using Banbutsu Sōzō. It's actually the only logical idea. Now, this would mean that the parent to the Uchiha is the Sage's Ocular powers, and the Senju's is the Sage's Body powers. Thus, Tobi needed both to use Izanagi (a form of Banbutsu Sōzō) and also needs both to later become the Jinchūriki for the 10 tails. Now to me, I think Naruto has already achieved the power of the Seju's body by being the Jinchūriki of the 9 tails and using that power. If not, I think Naruto has more growing to do as a Senju (the sage's body) that fit's more into how the Shodai fought and stuff like that. I don't think he has anything to do with the Sharingan or Rinnegan. However, I'm pretty sure that to have the Rinnegan you must be of the Uchiha decent or have them given to you or maybe Nagato was a love child of a Uzumaki (Senju) and a descendant of the Uchiha and thus another Sage was born... D: but if we believe Tobi GAVE the eyes to Nagato then it's the later.

Tobi is not Madara, as Madara himself has already stated that he dead. It is presumed that Kabuto's 6th coffin was Madara's coffin thus there shouldnt be a reason for Tobi to worry about that unless ofcourse he is not Madara.

Also Madara has the rinnegan, so there wouldnt be a reason for him to want to retrieve Nagato's eyes unless he didnt have the Rinnegan(which we know Madara has) However I have also thought of something as to how Nagato came to have it, as Tobi said he gave it to Nagato, perhaps that explains why Tobi is blind by one eye(an effect of passing that down or transfer??)because Sharingan -> Rinnegan seems to be the evolution, and Nagato doesnt follow that path, it would explain how he came to have that.

Tobi had that mask covering his eye since the 4ths era, Nagato ran into Pervy Sage before the 4th iirc. So that transfer would check off right with the timeline. This also means Madara was somewhere in the shadows still alive during this time(since knows of Nagato)probably in a weakend state after the fight with the 1st(after all these years).



*edit -note- I dont rule out the possibility that Tobi could be some essense of Madara, but him physically being Madara, no.

Tobi said he GAVE the eyes to Nagato, but it depends what he really meant... was it some sort of metaphor (i.e. I helped you "unlock"/"develop" them) or literal meaning? (i.e. I physically raped you installed the eyes in you)

Also, you talking about Izanagi remembered me we never saw Izanami. I wonder if Kishi will surprise us in the upcoming chapters! :D


So in the end the manga will end with Sasuke and Naruto doing a FUSION to overcome a Juubi Jinchuuriki Tobi, lolz :D

See, if he's blind in one eye, could it possibly be Obito? Who only has one eye left? As for transferring the Rinnegan to Nagato, how would that happen? Tobi has had to transplant everything till now. (Re: Itachi's eyes to Sasuke) Nagato would probably remember that, wouldn't he? He said he awakened them during a fight to save Yahiko, not to mention the transplant with Sasuke left him partially blind for a while. (He had to have his eyes covered with that cloth for a bit.)

Gawd you guys make me really feel like reading this again >.>

And watching it too.

crazy idea (and maybe stupid).
can tobi be http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Tobirama_Senju?

tobi=tobirama?

then again i read naruto not with much atention and the only link io have for this theory is the similarity of the name.

I might not perfectly recall the fight against Konan, but from what I remember that fight showed us that, despite wearing a mask witn an opening on only one eye, he actually had both.

An essence, a clone, a split, a something of Madara... yes. That is what I think. However, Kabuto said he brought him back full, unlike the others-- http://www.mangareader.net/naruto/560/3 top of the panel.

Now, here is something that kinda confirms Sharingan > Rinnegan--
http://www.mangareader.net/naruto/560/14 to the next page. Now on that next page there seems to be some hype about Madara's body. What's that? Apparently there is some kinda of secret about the Uchiha that is written within the Tablet that applies to Madara's body that must be apparent because he links himself to a Tablet even older than himself.

Now Kabuto claims that he unlocked the secret power, but Madara says it's not your power, it's mine. Idk if he is displaying that power with the comet or if he has yet to display it. Now his language on his death and Tobi. He is talking about Tobi when he says "This is something he would do..." meaning, Tobi didn't have the power to do it. So it must have been Nagato, but the dead Tsuchikage says nah it's Edo Tensei, meaning that he knows it's not Tobi, so who is doing it? Now, knowing about Nagato before his death either means that Nagato is something he planned on creating and died with it at VOTE or it's something he created left for Tobi to deal with, and then he died. Meaning he didn't die at VOTE... but that's a road I haven't gone down yet. D:

There is four roads.
Madara died at VOTE but created Tobi (Some kinda essence of himself) collected the scraps and that continued on his goal.
Madara died at VOTE and his apprentice Tobi collected the scraps and continued on his goal.
Madara didn't die at VOTE but only appeared to be. Created some kinda of essence of himself (Tobi) and continued to live on until he died some time after the creation of Nagato.
Madara didn't die at VOTE but lived and passed down his info to Tobi, an apprentice, who continued his goal while Madara lived in the shadow until he died shortly after the creation of Nagato.

Here is the thing. Some how, Kabuto got this DNA. This eleminates the last two paths because Tobi wouldn't have allowed this. It could be that some of his DNA was left at the VOTE or on the 1st Hokage's Blade and was later harvested by Orochimaru/Kabuto? Idk. I still think it's a split of Madara leaving him half as power, and also messing up his Rinnegan powers, and his EMS powers.

Interesting theory that made sense even because Tobirama was supposedly particularly skilled with space-time ninjutsu.

Still, it's appearently not right because Tobirama was brought back from the dead by Orochimaru's Edo Tensei, meaning that Tobirama really died and that, hence, Tobi can't be Tobirama, at least in theory.