"BLM Frame Can't Out Nuke A Real BLM"

Dodu, I think it's less people needing to learn to take advantage of Thieves, and more that Thieves need to remember that they have Collaborator.

True. Idk how, but i misread something, it was more an answer to Eyrhika. My apologies sir.

Yes, I did. Since when does "rarely" mean "not using it during an elongated fight?" Dont assume that everything I do involves an "elongated fight." I know how to use Emnity douse, I know when its time to use it, and when I can afford to simply wait for a voke, or a Collaborator. Given the fact that its a 10 minute timer, I prefer to go with the latter when I can.

Mizu, do the +1 AF hands reduce overloads more than the regular AF? I dont think they do

You're lowering your potential damage output by waiting to use it, and unless both you and the tank are enmity capped, Provoke shouldn't be taking hate off of you. A maximum 3,600 TE JA vs. a minimum 5000 TE spell, not happening.

Seems as if you're taking this personally. I'm not telling you you're terrible, or something. Neglecting to use Enmity Douse as soon as its up is a bad decision, though. When used properly, its good for an additional ~800 damage/minute, which is a very large relative increase.

They're not assumed to just as Buffoon's Collar +1 isn't assumed to. Didn't stop me from getting them.

WS proc last night in VW was the a ranger frame WS....

everything is situational, sure we can march along who can DoT the hardest, but smn and bst have a place, whm has a place etc etc. Not that im saying you shouldn't put them in line from strongest DD -> weakest, alot of people like competing for dmg, you know for a fact that i do. But yes in terms of single nuke numbers it's always been sch > pup > blm, utility: blm > sch + pup.



the enmity douse line is getting a little old, i find it hard to believe it will take you 10 minutes to cap your enmity, even if you do cap your enmity, its not like it takes the tank longer than 10 minutes to cap his own enmity so a single hit, flash, voke or what have you will keep the Target in line

There's VE and CE.

im aware, both of which your tank should be able to control far better than a blm.

That's what I meant. I actually got a Voidwatch NM yesterday that had two auto WSs as procs at the same time. Still, I wouldn't bring a PUP to Voidwatch if he had a more useful job.

***happens, PLD has JA timers, I don't know why it's so hard to fathom that a BLM can pull hate off a PLD occasionally. :x

no im completely fine with it, it just seems to be Dodu's only "real" arguement with blm, and its getting old hearing him trying to justify a 10 minute ability time and time again like its the *** holy grail.

he used it against Sch the other day, and now he is bringing it up in a *** pup topic.

I don't know what the other argument was and I don't really feel like sifting through threads, so I can't say the context.

Enmity Douse is a really good ability though. :x

Enmity is the sole limiting factor when it comes to non-pet damage. As far as damage boosts go, Enmity Douse is an immense difference(~8,000 damage every 10 minutes that a SCH, for instance, couldn't have dealt). And tank CE is hardly ever capped in VW, so no, its not as simple as them swinging again to get hate back.

If you disagree with its benefits, explain why, but if you're just going to *** because I'm bringing it up as a benefit, then please, use the door.

Edit: If you need to look at it from a different angle to understand why its so powerful, consider the following. A SMN, who's primary benefit is controllable damage for virtually no enmity, is looking at ~13,000 damage/10 minutes against higher level targets. That's assuming capped BP reduction timers, absolutely no resists, and perfect BP initiation(anyone who's played SMN in VW has probably had their avatar killed during/right before they were about to BP, which delays the process by ~5-10 seconds, or resets the timer altogether). Enmity Douse alone provides an additional ~8,000 damage/minute from CE removal. That's in the neighborhood of 60% of a SMN's total damage output in addition to what they'd generally be capable of doing within the confines of their enmity threshold. If that's not significant enough for you, then you must think the entire summoner job is a complete joke for any and all fights.

Edit2.0: And your logic is pretty frail. Complaining about my being monomaniacal in regard to Douse is pretty silly based on how this game works. Its akin to complaining about someone continually using Ukonvasura as a means to justifying a statement about WAR's output. If its a major contributing factor, I'd be pretty foolish to not mention it when comparing jobs.

Meh. Spiritsreaver is nowhere near putting out the total damage of a blm on its own. Pup is a job that can dish very great numbers, but by combining master and automaton, not just one of them. Yes, you can get your epeen nukes and say you do it harder than a blm, but your overall damage is more limited compared to that of a blm. Pup is a great dd, but its role is not to replace a blm. And half of it(automaton only)can't replace a drg, sam or whatever. You need the master fighting too.

never said it wasnt :|


the arguement is that how long does it take to cap your hate? one maybe 2 minutes? what do you do when you cap your hate? sit back and wait eight to nine more minutes until you can nuke again? or perhaps take the occasional hit when you need to?

Sure i cap hate incredibly fast, but im also not as squishy as people make mages out to be, they are actually quite sturdy. And for the Sch vs Blm arguement you are also aware of how very very little hate helix pulls, so if you want to go the route of the extra 8,000 dmg (which is already invalid for reasons i have just mentioned) sch has no problems getting that dmg without the use of Douse.

yes you bring it up as a benefit, which im cool with, but you bring that up like it is a game breaking difference.

you are completely missing the point, you're relying on something that you can use every 10 minutes, that should in no way hinder your output whether or not you had it.

The whole, "then what are you doing for the rest of your time while waiting for Douse to be back up?" argument is flawed. It doesn't matter how long it takes for you to recap your hate. An 8,000 damage boost is an 8,000 boost, even if you cap 10 seconds later. And it takes less than 2 minutes for your VE to completely decay, so its not as if you can't do anything in the down time.

Mages are easily one-shotted against harder VW targets. This isn't a matter of putting PDT gear on and letting Fafnir smack you around for a few seconds, this is you getting hit by a 1k+ TP move, or in the case of something like Kaggen, getting hit by a 700 damage swing. I would have agreed with you to an extent in the past, but today's endgame is a different ballpark.

Helices were a potentially fantastic idea, but we all know they're absolutely horrible right now. No applicable.

And I don't think its a game-breaking difference, but when most of the differences in this game are extremely minor, something like this becomes comparatively significant.

Also, stop being defensive. I'm not being a ***, just converse with me if you have a disagreement.

I'm not missing the point, you just seem to be forgetting how comparatively insignificant most enhancements are in this game. We play in an environment where we spend millions of gil to improve our Fudo damage by 10, and even then, enmity makes us choose between slowing down our damage by x-amount, or dying to reset it, at which point we need to wait to become unweakened. A JA that increases a job's damage output by 800 damage/minute, which doesn't take enmity into account, is large by comparison.

again, people think Enmity Douse is SOOOO great , shouldn't even be mentioned because the very long recast, you obviously don't know what is Equanimity,(2 stratagems cost), sch can ditch out loads of dmg without ebullience alone vs Enmity Douse recasting timer, thats more than your immense difference(~8,000 damage every 10 minutes, but it's hard to understand because you don't even have sch lvled up, but hey blm can out dd sch because they can ROTATE spells like mad! OMGZZZZZZZZZ INFINITE MP!!!!! these silly arguments needs to stop

...really?

For whatever reason, my report function is still missing. Someone mind handling that for me?

How about this. If we have to wait a minute to nuke why don't we talk about scholar using blizz V about as often as a pup and absolutely destroying said pups dmg between hailstorm and ebullience? A blm can't out dmg a sch on the same tier nuke but for the most part can get more nukes off faster and use things like -jas. Pup isn't even as good at sch at performing one time nukes every minute and the double weakened argument a sch can easily turn into a good support healer lol. All I read from your argument is pup < sch :).


Edit: I need to start reading last page posts lol.

I understand and mostly agree with your premise, but being able to shift into another role isn't generally all that beneficial. If you didn't need help supporting beforehand, you shouldn't need it then, and if you did need help supporting beforehand, there should have been a job reassessment.

8k dmg every 10 minutes is incredibly meh.

i beg to differ, perhaps you dont idle in a DT- set or what have you, but not once have any of the T4's in the old voidwatch have one shotted me, let alone sit there and hit you till you are dead, if you are getting hit that long then there is an issue. Even Kaggen is unable to affectively kill your mages if they were idling properly, you have so much native MDB that its a joke with his nukes which damage wise is the biggest threat from him.

my 300 base dmg helices on VW mobs would like to have a word with you.


fair enough, its a levarage sch has being that it can take care of itself if it does pull far to much hate, where a blm would have to go seeking some help.


im fine with having a debate about it, but you havent been the cool headed fellow as of late, and you telling me to get out is not exactly helping your case.

I usually have a pup (not me sadly, I hate how I have more useful jobs like whm) in VW just for their procs. A lot of VWNMs cannot be melee'd due to very dangerous Aoes and a lot are very melee resistent or evasive. Pup really shines in many of these situations, the T2 slime off the top of my head. They are a melee you bring for procs that dont have to just stand in a corner and play with themselves. I think pup is an awesome DD job to bring to Voidwatch and much better than even BLMs (who dont have fanatics lol). BLMs with fanatics is cheating.. really.. and i need to exploit it more...

Sorry was mostly arguing with the OPs premise of pup/sch helping support as well.

emanuelle, you're ok and all sometimes, but there are times where you should not post..... please dont ever bring up equanimity again.

the whole sch being a good support healer when double weak is kinda meh only because sch's viable cure, cure 4, is on a 7 second cool down timer if i remember correctly :S