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US military law?
Serveur: Valefor
Game: FFXI
Posts: 14155
By Valefor.Slipispsycho 2011-05-08 00:51:05
Quote: Hence, my comprehension comment - which evidently indicates your inability to pay attention to detail. Evidently these facts offend your politically correct perspective.
You can say many things about Jet..
Being pre-occupied over remaining politically correct simply isn't one of them.
Just a thought, but maybe he just disagrees with you? Maybe there's not some greater reason he does, maybe his values are different than yours? I dunno just an idea.. I probably would have come to a thousand different conclusions before accusing him of being politically correct.
Serveur: Valefor
Game: FFXI
Posts: 159
By Valefor.Endlesspath 2011-05-08 00:57:18
Valefor.Slipispsycho said: Quote: Hence, my comprehension comment - which evidently indicates your inability to pay attention to detail. Evidently these facts offend your politically correct perspective.
You can say many things about Jet..
Being pre-occupied over remaining politically correct simply isn't one of them.
Just a thought, but maybe he just disagrees with you? Maybe there's not some greater reason he does, maybe his values are different than yours? I dunno just an idea.. I probably would have come to a thousand different conclusions before accusing him of being politically correct.
Np at all he has a different opinion, I just try to base my opinions on facts vs "feelings"...
I did end my last statement to him with "Enjoy your freedom of opinion, those that served their country paid for it." Didn't I?
Serveur: Fenrir
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3205
By Fenrir.Skarwind 2011-05-08 01:02:57
80% drop out rate for men going for seals.. Whats the point of arguing if 99% of women would drop out.
Serveur: Valefor
Game: FFXI
Posts: 159
By Valefor.Endlesspath 2011-05-08 01:07:17
Fenrir.Skarwind said: 80% drop out rate for men going for seals.. Whats the point of arguing if 99% of women would drop out.
It's all about maintaining standards, thats my point. I don't care who gets what job/position/etc, as long as they meet/exceed a consistently applied set of standards.
Carbuncle.Mythikah
Serveur: Carbuncle
Game: FFXI
Posts: 153
By Carbuncle.Mythikah 2011-05-08 10:04:20
Raborn said: From my experiences in the labor field, most men are capable of generating more raw power at any given time than most women.
Men are capable of swallowing their emotions and doing whatever is needed to be done, where women in most cases don't like to swallow their emotions.
Men have a higher bone density than most women, meaning less physical injuries and can easily take stronger impacts than women.
Most of the time when special force units are deployed its in and out straight off the bat, they go in, hit hard, and the goal is everyone on the team comes out alive.
You don't have time for baby sitting, its not fair to put men and women together as naturally men will try to protect women.
It will put our "best" at risk because their focus is on something else besides the mission itself.
I'm down for an all women team.
But F*Bomb the idea of mixing genders on something as important as that.
But I'm not talking about "most" men and women, I'm talking about those that have what it takes. No good reason for prohibiting those people. I agree that most women wouldn't be able to do it, but all your points on physical prowess are nil if a woman can pass the right tests. She has all those tough qualities if she does. The bone density argument is questionable. And you know, if a guy is so much as smacked in the balls, he becomes completely incapacitated, and you wouldn't want that! Haha.
I'm not sure exactly what causes society to evolve and change, but I'm hoping the US is eventually going to respect women the special forces, if they can satisfy the requirements. That "babysitting" comment you said annoyed me so much. It goes to show how perceptions of men and women are still really old-timey in certain ways -.- If it's so awful to mix the genders, why not segregate them in every single aspect of life? What if a female civilian gets hurt during a mission, will the men go crazy then as well? I just find this reasoning illogical.
Women and men fight together in all sorts of instances in other countries, and I think they can handle it. I doubt everything would be ruined if they change this law, and I really think it's worth it.
Leviathan.Angelskiss
Serveur: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
Posts: 7227
By Leviathan.Angelskiss 2011-05-08 10:09:50
Carbuncle.Mythikah said: What if a female civilian gets hurt during a mission, will the men go crazy then as well? I just find this reasoning illogical.
The civilians are not part of your core team who are responsible for your life and possible death. The bond you share with your core unit is stronger then that which you share with friends and/or family.
Hence units calling their guys "brothers" and getting their names tattooed on their *** (joke, i hope)..
You cannot compare how a member of a unit reacts to a civilian death/injury to the death or injury to another unit member.
Just wanted to point out what I felt was a flawed statement. :)
Asura.Ina
Serveur: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 17912
By Asura.Ina 2011-05-08 10:36:34
Carbuncle.Mythikah said: And you know, if a guy is so much as smacked in the balls, he becomes completely incapacitated, and you wouldn't want that! Haha.
Only in movies and TV is this the case. Yes it hurts like a *** but only at the lower end of physical fortitude will compleatly incapacitated be the case. With the levels of fortitude required of navy seals id guess at most you would get a grunt? and they do make protective gear for balls...
Honestly theres a thread here full of good reasons why this is the case... Yes these reasons are tied to the fact that they are a woman but thats just how the cookie crumbles.
Serveur: Cerberus
Game: FFXI
Posts: 15
By Cerberus.Jerseymarine 2011-05-08 10:39:17
OK, here goes. I spent 4 years Active duty in the United States Marine Corps, and received a Combat Action Ribbon from serving in Iraq in 03. i actually love arguments over this issue because it comes down to 1 thing over all. no matter what your feelings are on the matter the FACT is that females do NOT have to meet the same standards to join the Military. IF females have the same standards i am ALL FOR it but the FACT is they do not.i knew 2 females in the entire 4 years i spent in the marines that took the Male PFT because they wanted to be EQUAL. 2 of them, thats it. the rest wanted to be treated as equals but REFUSED to have to follow the same STANDARDS for men. the WHOLE country threw a fit because we had a Female get captured in combat, and when she and the 2 or 3 men she was with got rescued they gave HER a Bronze star, but NOT to the other men that got captured with her.
When and IF females can be held to the same standards to get in the military i will be ALL for it, but you cant expect females to be able to be Recon or Seals if they have less requirements to begin with to get in the Military..
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Cerberus.Oblit
Serveur: Cerberus
Game: FFXI
Posts: 116
By Cerberus.Oblit 2011-05-08 11:35:49
I agree with Jerseymarine. I've been in Active duty military for 9 years now.
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Carbuncle.Mythikah
Serveur: Carbuncle
Game: FFXI
Posts: 153
By Carbuncle.Mythikah 2011-05-08 11:42:50
Leviathan.Angelskiss said: Carbuncle.Mythikah said: What if a female civilian gets hurt during a mission, will the men go crazy then as well? I just find this reasoning illogical.
The civilians are not part of your core team who are responsible for your life and possible death. The bond you share with your core unit is stronger then that which you share with friends and/or family.
Hence units calling their guys "brothers" and getting their names tattooed on their *** (joke, i hope)..
You cannot compare how a member of a unit reacts to a civilian death/injury to the death or injury to another unit member.
Just wanted to point out what I felt was a flawed statement. :)
Good point. Wish they could have the same sort of bond with "sisters" as well though ._.
Cerberus.Jerseymarine said: OK, here goes. I spent 4 years Active duty in the United States Marine Corps, and received a Combat Action Ribbon from serving in Iraq in 03. i actually love arguments over this issue because it comes down to 1 thing over all. no matter what your feelings are on the matter the FACT is that females do NOT have to meet the same standards to join the Military. IF females have the same standards i am ALL FOR it but the FACT is they do not.i knew 2 females in the entire 4 years i spent in the marines that took the Male PFT because they wanted to be EQUAL. 2 of them, thats it. the rest wanted to be treated as equals but REFUSED to have to follow the same STANDARDS for men. the WHOLE country threw a fit because we had a Female get captured in combat, and when she and the 2 or 3 men she was with got rescued they gave HER a Bronze star, but NOT to the other men that got captured with her.
When and IF females can be held to the same standards to get in the military i will be ALL for it, but you cant expect females to be able to be Recon or Seals if they have less requirements to begin with to get in the Military..
At least you agree with me on the principle though. Also, feelings are not part of the issue, I'm focusing on fact as well. I'm guessing you're worried that if they change the law to let women try out, you think people will then want the standards lowered, but that's exactly what I don't want :( But I also don't want women to be completely unable to be firemen, policemen, etc. like Angel was talking about. Ugh this topic is making my head hurt now.
Leviathan.Angelskiss
Serveur: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
Posts: 7227
By Leviathan.Angelskiss 2011-05-08 11:50:28
Carbuncle.Mythikah said: Leviathan.Angelskiss said: Carbuncle.Mythikah said: What if a female civilian gets hurt during a mission, will the men go crazy then as well? I just find this reasoning illogical.
The civilians are not part of your core team who are responsible for your life and possible death. The bond you share with your core unit is stronger then that which you share with friends and/or family.
Hence units calling their guys "brothers" and getting their names tattooed on their *** (joke, i hope)..
You cannot compare how a member of a unit reacts to a civilian death/injury to the death or injury to another unit member.
Just wanted to point out what I felt was a flawed statement. :)
Good point. Wish they could have the same sort of bond with "sisters" as well though ._.
They do, and theat is exactly my point. We are their SISTERS, and what man does not want to protect his sister from all harm and rages when they are hurt ? Its a difference in thinking in gender, not one you can easily fix..It is how it is, just like MOST women are raised to believe big brother will protect us, daddy will protect us...
i see where you are going with this argument and agree with the principle, but there are tooo many flaws for it to be viable I believe.
Also- in MY dept, I had to meet the set standard, not a female vs male standard in every advanced training certification there is (like JAWS of life cert, deep water rescue etc)
I like it...Means I am equal.
Carbuncle.Mythikah
Serveur: Carbuncle
Game: FFXI
Posts: 153
By Carbuncle.Mythikah 2011-05-08 12:07:16
Leviathan.Angelskiss said: Carbuncle.Mythikah said: Leviathan.Angelskiss said: Carbuncle.Mythikah said: What if a female civilian gets hurt during a mission, will the men go crazy then as well? I just find this reasoning illogical.
The civilians are not part of your core team who are responsible for your life and possible death. The bond you share with your core unit is stronger then that which you share with friends and/or family.
Hence units calling their guys "brothers" and getting their names tattooed on their *** (joke, i hope)..
You cannot compare how a member of a unit reacts to a civilian death/injury to the death or injury to another unit member.
Just wanted to point out what I felt was a flawed statement. :)
Good point. Wish they could have the same sort of bond with "sisters" as well though ._.
They do, and theat is exactly my point. We are their SISTERS, and what man does not want to protect his sister from all harm and rages when they are hurt ? Its a difference in thinking in gender, not one you can easily fix..It is how it is, just like MOST women are raised to believe big brother will protect us, daddy will protect us...
i see where you are going with this argument and agree with the principle, but there are tooo many flaws for it to be viable I believe.
Also- in MY dept, I had to meet the set standard, not a female vs male standard in every advanced training certification there is (like JAWS of life cert, deep water rescue etc)
I like it...Means I am equal.
Yeah I guess you're right, but ideally I think it's something we should be moving towards someday. Same with lots of other issues that are super difficult to fix with society as it is now. Discussing it is one of the first steps eh :D?
Ok so I'm not an American, but all the hullaballoo about Osama and everything got me looking at stuff. Apparently women aren't allowed to be in special operations or SEALs and I have this big beef with it. It's been annoying me for awhile as I find it completely ridiculous, and it's even more ridiculous that so many people are all for it.
I know I'm not a citizen of the country so I have no say in trying to change this, but I can complain about it just as much as I can complain about slavery in the Middle-East or something. o.o; I'm not trying to act like a "femi-nazi" or anything, and I'd like to know what other people think about the issue. So I wrote out this big list of all my jumbled thoughts and I really wanted to post it somewhere so here goes:
-Only the women that can perform to the exact same standards as men should get in.
-Should not ban women based on solely her gender. There is no logical reason for this; do men have penis wars or something?
-The military fights for "rights and freedom" but women don't have the freedom to try out for the best team that fights for what they believe in?
-Women can take birth control to stop their periods for long periods of time, which would fix hygiene issues (no pregnancy as well)! I also think it's reasonable for it to be mandatory that military women take birth control.
-They do not need special doctors, facilities, etc; why can't they hire a doctor who's skilled with both male and female anatomy? Women can easily use the same washrooms as men; it's only as big a deal as people make it out to be (soldiers must endure tons of mental hardship, so really, how difficult is it for them to deal with this?). This goes with all other social problems associated. I think human rights outweigh the cost of having to deal with these social problems.
-Asian men have a low chance of building the muscle capacity to succeed; why are they still allowed to try out and women are not?
-Social conditions need to change so that women aren't forced to believe they'll always be weaker. They're only as weak as they're taught to be. Inspire them to try their best--biologically, most women will never make it, but they can try and at least feel the success in that.
-Women could be an asset--fitting into small spaces, using their lesser weight to their advantage as they can be supported by less, causing the opponent to let their guard down, etc. Maybe there's something that only a woman can do that could be useful for a mission? I read that women's skeletons are more prone to breakage than men's, but maybe there's a few special ladies out there that are super tough? The major thing is that I'm against sweeping generalizations against an entire group of people.
-If it costs a lot of resources to train/recruit women, couldn't we apply the same logic to so many other areas where women participate? Namely the workplace. We eventually realized women are a valuable asset to the workforce. I think that if a woman is somehow able to meet the standards, she should be able to be in the special forces. Don't ban based on gender, ban based on ability. This is the same crap women had to deal with for medical school, etc.
-I hear about this "bro" group morale thing soldiers have going on--I honestly don't see why women can't be a part of it. They can be just as cool and chill, even about sex talk, drinking etc. It's seriously not that difficult to keep your head straight around the opposite gender.
-You guys say that race doesn't matter when you're all out there fighting together in the midst battle; why can't gender be a non-issue as well? We're all human.
-Of course men and women are different biologically, but what is so so terrible about trying to change how we perceive each other/interact? Humans are always evolving, just like animals, and it's not like our natures are set in stone forever. That silly argument about men screwing up the mission to save the woman? Stop hiring crappy soldiers like that. A good male soldier knows what to do and treats a female soldier with respect because she's there for the exact same reason he is. This is an iffy thing, as I understand it, because I know we don't want completely heartless soldiers as well.
-I'm A-OK if not a single woman ever makes it, as long as she is not banned from it due to her gender, nor harassed, treated like crap, or driven away from it socially.
-I also think the selective services should be scrapped, or at least made to include women.
Sorry for all the ramblings, I just really wanted to get my thoughts out there and if you all think I'm retarded, oh well. v.v
Oh, and personally, I'm pathetically weak and would never survive any sort of military, but it's the principle that matters!
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