WAR TP DA Build.

I'm not sure what the cap on double attack is, however with the set below (with carbonara) and atma of VV you would have 42% double attack and a 6 hit build. (assuming normal activation rate and 5/5 merits.)



My question is, is 42% DA with a 6 hit build for ukon comparable to a 5 hit with 30% (the normal 5-hit build with merits/vv/jt is 30%).

Double attacking potentially once every other swing (not a true 50% I know) compared to once every third would lead me to believe they are somewhat similar.

theoretically
DA 6 hit: hit, double, hit, double = 100 tp
STP 5 hit: hit, hit, hit, double = 100 tp

DA diminishing return in high haste scenario etc.

What you are comparing really is an extra 12% DA rate VS 1 less hit to reach 100 TP. Whereas the extra DA potential is a "chance", the fact you will need 1 less hit on a 5-Hit build is a fact, and generally, with identical haste values, X-Hit > DA

The math guys here will probably explain this better if they bother to reply, but I believe the answer is no.

Edit: You must also keep in consideration what the "optimal gear per slot" is and what you are equipping instead.
The easiest comparison comes from AF3 hands VS Dusks since you have to remember the enhance restraint is best used in the TP phase and affects your WSs.

If that's what you have currently cool.. I'm sure you do pretty good damage with it. However, you should strive to achieve a 5 hit build. I am 100% positive 5hit > DA build. Let's say you have a 50% chance to DA with a 6hit. 5hit build you'd lose 1% haste with is actually not a full 1%.. besides the point though.

50% chance to DA says your average attack round are something like 4 per WS. Now with the 5hit you'd lose 6% DA and 1% haste. 5hit build you'd have on average 3 attack round per WS... and that's even if you drop your DA to something like 33% instead of 50%ish. This is all obviously theory and I used round numbers for ease.

A current 5hit build isn't all that hard to get honestly. Hardest thing to get imo is rose strap. Only because it takes the most time. I'm currently working towards mine lol.

I just found out there's actually been some debating going on in a DRK topic (Damage Calculator), where some people are saying some DA builds may be better than a lower X-Hit build, and the argument was extended to other melees as well.

It'd be interesting to see some more participation by the math geeks on that idea.

I'm by no means a math whiz at this game however, my math did seem fairly accurate. Obviously I'm missing a lot of decimal places but you're never going to swing 3 and 1/3 times. The average will probably be tween 3 and 4 attack rounds with a 5hit build. I can say with near certainty that your average attack rounds per WS will be less with a 5 hit then a DA build.

Now whether the damage difference per swing will compensate for the extra swing on the DA build isn't likely but I could be wrong. It would have to be pretty considerable to compensate for the extra swing.

My original statement was leaning towards optimistic on the 5 hit with 3 average attack rounds, but if you consider triple attack +15% it's probably pretty close.

Oh, I wasn't trying to discourage your theory. I too, believe a lower Hit build will win.
I just felt this argument was worth bumping to see if some other people reply and can add some extra math/knowlege XD

Yes a DA build can be slightly better than a 5hit build. It varies though for either build. As when either build is better than the other its roughly by the same amount. TBH the difference is probably going to be equal in the long run.

5hit relying on carb is better for weaker type mobs while, a 6hit DA build with red curry will be equal if not better than a 5hit(again marginally 2-4%)on mobs you arent capping attack on(which is more than ppl give credit for). Also if you arent cleaving and holding tp as to prevent rubies(some groups rage on that /shrugs) then hitting harder and more often would be better when you holding your ws.

Also swap to af+2 body, and swap to the 4% hands that drop from the behemoth in plateau and eat better meat.

I havent posted this up before because Im still dubious if the added bonus on the +2 hands to restraint is being calculated on the spreadsheets. So take that into consideration, either way the difference would be minimal and both setups should do well against each other.

Personally I wouldn't use a 5hit build that requires Carb... I'd rather use a 6hit with Red Curry buns. Once I have the gear required to make a 5hit w/o carb I will switch to that. It's in the works and will take time. Stupid *** time constraints on getting medals for Rose Strap are just about the only thing in my way.

Well nobody really uses red Curry buns, And because of DA's Diminishing returns, I'd definiately go with the 5-hit/Carb set (OUTSIDE Abyssea), Inside i can just use VV and Drop a little STP Like tactical for Atheling (+35 att +3% Da) making the 5-hit set even better. Either way DA isn't normal mathematics, If you had 50% Double attack i assure you that you won't see one every 2 hits on average. 5-hit is consistant and will always occur, as DA isn't.

and outparsing every other job, it's good for that too

I dont see what diminishing returns has to do with considering more DA in your gear. Ppl throw out the word diminishing returns w/o really thinking about what they are saying. "I wont use this b/c it has diminishing returns" 90% of the stats in this game have diminishing returns.

What you have to do is compare the increase you get from one piece to another. For instance going from 40% to 45% DA is roughly 3.5% you would need roughly 20-24 attack(depending on your att,mob def) to equal that, about an increase of 8 base damage(15 of the stat for a ws for emp) etc.

Hit builds are never constant, they never have been, however before abyssea we had access to less DA/TA gear/atmas, therefore limiting the average of hit rounds. You have to factor over tp flow, the amount of DA/TA you have in your build, the stp you have and ofcourse ws JA delay. The more ws you are pumping out, the more delay you are adding to your overall damage, thus slowing you down to a point where a lesser hit build with more haste/att/DA/crit% etc would deal more damage over time.

Im not saying this is an absolute answer, I think everyone must go through their own setups and see what works best for them, with their buffs and targets they wish to target. Like I said previous, the difference is small between the setups and ppl can use whichever they choose. I personally like the look of the DA build more, just because Im not to fond of the tiara(sadly ill need it on my sam..) look and since both builds are surely a tie between eachother I dont see why no one would not mind using it or testing it.

Can easily use masa's or kine's spreadsheets or your owns to see how these builds compare against mobs inside abyssea with your buffs/atmas etc.

K, so lets have a chat based on this paragraph. Hit builds are alot more consistant than double attack first of all, The only time it won't occur with a true 5-hit is if you miss, which is a 5% chance with capped acc.Sure, theres a small delay sometimes when WSing, but keep in mind you can melee attack while the WS animation goes off. And if i DA or TA and go over the 100 tp mark, it wont matter. Im still double attacking which was your point, the damage doesn't dissapear. it may just hit for less dmg, which i'd get in return from WSing more often eventually, Im not saying there's a huge difference from that DA attack build and the 5-hit with carbs, but i am saying i am pretty confident the 5-hit build would win in most situations, just not by a large margin, even with you obviously attacking more cuz of the added DA, The 5-hit set gets a 3% increase in ws dmg, and you -will- WS More often than the da build. Idk, i rly think the 5-hit is better.

Why no Red Curry buns? They are very good.

Consistency means nothing unless you are planning to go in and fight a mob once, then never play the game again. Things average out to their theoretical values over time. If you have 50% DA, you WILL see half your hits DA on average.

also this^

Was mentioning the fact that most players don't walk around consuming red curry buns like it's nothing, they're kinda pricey for food.

70k is pricey?

if 70k is pricey that Aegis isn't yours.

Most people I see that still actually use food as a DD use red curry buns. 56k a stack over here. Idk about nming but in an xp pt you'd probably break even just from the cruor you get eatting red curry buns non stop. Cruor pt you'd still be making money easy. Pizza is 7k each over here btw lol

If I'm struggling for money, I tend to just npc the Dark rings from Konschtat :x

I'll admit I hardly ever use food on either exp pty or NMs, but it's not because of the price rather than for the unrealistic need to go waste food while in a sloppy alliance with half the people afk or warping to "dump merits" and then magically reappear as a leech...

As for the NM branch, for the most part I go to trigger weaknesses, so again, no need of food just to Proc with some ZOMGDIDYOUSEETHEDAMAGEONTHAT Earth crusher!

If I endup tanking, that's another story

Meh I haven't seriously went out to get money in forever... like months. Eat curry buns constantly on blu and thf wether it be xp cruor or nms. Still buy gear and still manage to slowly go down... if it wasn't for all the abyssea gear I buy I would break even... but what's gil if you aren't going to spend it no? Just spent a few mil today getting aisa bonnet and my +2 thf feet ^^. First time I've been under 10 mil since abyssea came out and buying stuff kinda became lame lol. So now I'm fishing... though looking into better ways to make money fishing... and might try some dark ring solo farming since I need some and refresh hairpin anyways

You bought a Aias bonnet?

I'm solo 99% of the time now so yeah why not. And when I was in an ls and we sometimes did random nms like that outside of real events of course leader claimed it. 1 mil is nothing for me compared to the time it would take to get people together claim and kill till it dropped.

Shoulda asked! Coulda duo'd it!

I gave up asking people awhile ago. Not alot of friends over here anymore and most are kinda meh when i bring up doing anything. Like sure maybe later... later never comes. I mean mob is easy... but the time spent doing it especially without more TH procs and proccing blue each time is kinda lame. Kinda funny cause the guys I bought it from were 0/7 with blue proc for themselves...

Was kinda spur of the moment since I had just dropped my MKE hat and needed new ws peice

Lol not pricey for me, but it seems alot of people now a days are too lazy to make money so they're broke, at least on this server.

Making money is extremely easy at the moment. People just don't know how.