Twasher + Offhand Dagger Options

Pretty sure set bonuses don't proc during ws.

And even if they could, assassins charges does not force an AF3 proc.

Well assuming you are using Rudra's ODD kinda smashes mandaus...

Being a 60% dex mod is a huge advantage to Rudras. Using str atmas is really counter productive for thieves since there are many better choices out there. If you can't get more str then Mercy is always going have a lower base damage.

Kirana, the reason why rudras was doing so much was because i was using RR/AO/Apoc and it was a weak to pierce mob. 41% TA (was using rapidus back then) + 11% DA really puts its average number of hits way up there. Evis will also be affected by this increase, except since it has a higher base number of hits, the marginal increase is smaller.

Sorry, I didn't equate "luck" and "force". Generally "force" is used to describe an ability that allows you to do something that you normally cannot do, OR makes it occur with 100% chance.

I'm already through the hell that is Glavoid, have most of the level 90 Orthrus Claws completed, just have to deal with Itzpapalotl and the suck of Tunga. I guess I'll have to play around with the damn thing to determine if it was just a big time sink, but either way, it looks pretty cool having the golden shiny on one hip and the cake cutter on the other.

To the other comment about using counter-productive STR atmas - they really didn't make enough of a difference to drop out the benefits of GH/RR/Apoc overall.

Thf is kinda lacking in the att department so something like SA would do some awesomeness to your dmg.

Using Mandau(90) (35 ATT) + Kila +2 (9 STR/20 ATT) when looking for stronger Mercy numbers, my attack on WS I believe sits in the 600~ish range. I'm at work so I cannot verify exact numbers, but I also burn attack foods since my wife plays as well and is a cook, so I'm usually rocking red curry buns or at worst Carbonara. I tried SA and it didn't seem to do much either sadly...

Didn't do much compared to another or compared to nothing? I generally rock mid 700 att on blu 816ish with drink up... and the dmg difference is rather noticable between the 2. On xp mobs... on nms need mores probably lol,

SA adds 60 by itself multipled by food and possible drinks can be a decent amount... and 40 str isn't bad

like all good women.... (jk <3 women)

speaking of straight RS damage i noticed that i get much higher consistent numbers if i can get my attack to around say..700? I sit at 464 no buffs. drinks + food (QQ i go through shihei and red curry buns too fast)push me close to 700, if i have gambir it's over 700 if i remember right~
averaging about 3k-3.2kish unstacked using my normal RR GS Apoc on trash mobs.

What i normally do is open a fight with 300% tp RS and ride the aftermath spamming evis @ 100% until aftermath is close to wearing off. when im close to it wearing off i normally hold TP for a 200-300% RS again and keep the cycle going.

I'd like a mandau to play with soon since the 90 version gets a nice 25% boost but overall dps i think twashtar takes the cake (ha ha ha bad joke) with its aftermath. unfortunately ive had very few competent mandau thf's on my server to poke around with :(

in the end what works for you works i guess~ who cares how you play your thf as long as you get results and arent the "im here for TH" garbage.

After all that being said....

I wish I had a dedicated bard :(

I leveled BRD so i could be a dedicated helper for a THF i used to do things with.

Then he got all quity on me, i think he'll be back @ 99 Cap, but that was a waste of time =.=a

Also uh, Forgive my dumbness, What Atma os "GS"? I normally stick with RR/GH/Apoc for when i low-man due to GH giving the AGI bonus for Subtle Blow-effect and EVA, as well as more crit-rate. But I'd like to know if this has changed and i should be looking into something else o-o

Well come the dyni update currency and relics will be come rather cheap, so if you are going all out for top notch, I would say mandau

I've been considering a Relic, but with so many jobs its hard to decide. I've always wanted a Mandau, but I've been working on Thwast lately. truthfully if my PLD was useful I'd get an Excalibur cause i just want one :(, Hey, I Could use it on RDM :O!

Heh. Im sad the servers are down now. Oh Well, Back to Pokemon Black or Minecraft =x

It was a typo~ i ment to type out GH, I plan to start up my mandau once update changes. I have enough to get it to stage 3 and partly into 4 right now but i want to see how this changes things.

I usually duo karbuncle so i stick with the RR GH Apoc build UNLESS its something big and i replace apoc with a elemental resist atma.

I've had a 90 Mandau and a 90 Twashtar for a few months now. I don't run tests to check but from what i can see Twashtar is pretty useles.s I'd have been better of doing a Kannagi, i'm sad to say. :/ That's my opinion on it, hence i leveled Dancer to make me feel slightly better, but even then i just end up using Evis.

Mercy Stroke kills it on weaponskill damage when stacked with SA or TA. I suppose you could argue that with double march, mainhanding Twash might be a superior option for the ODD. I thought that for a while but the difference seems so minute it's not worth the hassle.

Someone mentioned Rudra's doing 6k+, well it can... but so can Mercy. Mercy will drop 5k+ easily on EXP mobs with the right atmas, i just can't seem to compete with that when using Rudra's :/.

I'm glad i got it in the end. I actually offhand it with Mandau mainhand just because i might aswell? (i've never been a fan of caring about what people think). The difference between offhand daggers seems so tiny (in abyssea) that, at the end of the day, i'd rather just use it on offhand than spend all that time getting it and leave it in the Mog House! It looks cool too, so why not!

Blade, i got it for the exact same reason as you're getting it. I had nothing left to do so i spent time dual boxing the damn thing. You can't be the best if you don't have weapons/armor for every situation. I'm sure Twashtar shines in various situations i just can't see a clear one yet. Maybe trolling, or doing, the maths myself on Mandau/Twashtar would be a good place to start! However you can take it from me, you'll be putting that Mandau in the main slot still :)

Sorry for not replying to OP but i think you've already got your answer in this thread already if you look closely!

Talk about a necrobump, but then again these forums in general are pretty much necrobumps. Anyways, to the matter at hand.

I personally chose to upgrade a Twashtar over Mandau. I also heavily play DNC and so it seemed the logical choice. I'm considering a Mandau now that Dyna has been altered to be more friendly to solo/lowman, and now that there will be a revival of currency.

As to the question of whether or not Twashtar (Rudra's) is better than Mandau (Mercy). Well, it's somewhat gray. Most people are doing their tests in Abyssea, which I don't feel is very fair. We're to assume that Abyssea, and RR more importantly, will not remain the standard by games end, and that would mean the tests are inaccurate, relatively. Outside of Abyssea, assuming both weapons are level 90, I've seen that the DPS of the 2 is quite comparable. Mercy Stroke is technically stronger in terms of sheer WS numbers (assuming you have the ideal set), but the ODD from Twashtar allows for it to hang tough. An elaboration on how Abyssea can skew the results is to factor out atma and cruor buffs. Outside Abyssea, with 102 base DEX, and factoring in 57 from swaps, I WS in 159 DEX. Let's say though, that Arbitrary Parser 2 is an Elvaan with 90 Base DEX and 8/8 STR merits. Obviously this difference is going to be far more apparent when you don't have Abyssea buffs to equalize the stats. instances like these could help to sway the DMG of 1 of the 2 WSs to be more productive.

As some have already said, it really just boils down to what you can get. Twashtar is far more reasonable to obtain in terms of time spent, but it is more difficult. Mandau on the other hand is a complete joke as far as difficulty goes, but it takes considerably longer to complete, and then upgrade. Either way, if you get one of the 2, and know how else to gear and play your job, you are going to be a good THF. Over a huge parse sample one may pull ahead, but that doesn't constitute either being gimp in comparison. Get whichever you, gear for it's ws, learn how best to use it, and shred stuff.

Almost completely irrelevant, and with no concrete testing to back it up, I thought I would offer up this anecdotal bit of info to take the serious tone out.

Ukonvasara is arguably the best Emp. weapon available, on arguably the best pure DD in the game atm in WAR. Funny though, I've watched a Mithra with a 90 Ukon use Ukko's on Carabosse for about 4800 a shot, and then a taru in my ls turns around and throws off 4500 Raging Rushes with a Widowmaker. Obviously the Ukon is better, but the point is that you can be a good player by learning the strengths of what you have and adapting to them.

As for offhand daggers, Triplus is completely free, requires little effort, and is essentially the best you're going to do, especially outside of abyssea. STR Kilas are also a very good choice, especially on high def mobs, and a DEX Kila/Rapidus can be nice for things like Flame Skimmer/Tunga with high Eva. I personally offhand Triplus is I am trying to deal DMG primarily, an Eva Kila if I am tanking, and I carry around Twilight/Auric/Rapidus in my satchel incase a particular instance would see their use.

EDIT: Also worth note, once concrete testing has been done, is the new Onerios knife. 30 DMG 150 DLY 6 AGI and increases Crit DMG. If the increase to Crit DMG is 5% or higher, it could prove to be the best offhand dagger.

triplus or twilight is a good off hands but str killa is almost always better ( that is unless you're both str and attack capped). Pain in the *** to complete though. Seriously doubt that new dagger is any good. 30 dmg is very low, and now that abyssea is over it loses its value; you lose like 33% of your base damage for only +25% attack speed.. doesn't seem to be worth it.

Pretty sure the 3% TA on triplus blows str kila away for offhand, not to mention the lower delay. As for oneiros knife, the only thing I see that being possibly useful for is offhand for kannagi (assuming the lack of dagger skill isn't killing acc).

Onerios Knife would be great if it were 10% or more crit damage.

I did the maths for main hand: D43 delay 190 sub triplus, versus double D43 delay 190 daggers, before working on my kila+2s. Triplus option was only 2-3% ahead (out or in abyssea); The maths behind that is really straightforward, without going into X-hit builds delailed calculations:


Just imagine you are STR capped (+12 fstr), putting Kilas+2 at a disadvantage:

Set up A: double DMG43 delay 190.
Set up B: DMG43 delay 190 sub: triplus DMG38 delay 176 triple +3%.

According to the latest Pchan tests tripple attack is checked before double attack ( ZAM, mnk forum, epona on WS thread). Standard THF tp set nowadays include +16% triple attack and +13% double attack. Therefor

Setup A has: 0.16*3+0.84*0.13*2+0.84*0.87*1=1.43 melee attacks per hand on average ( with 100% acc anyway)

Setup B has: 0.19*3+0.81*0.13*2+0.81*0.87*1=1.48

Therefore the triplus option has an advantage of

[(43+38+12+12)/(190+176)]*[(190+190)/(43+43+12+12)]*(0.19*3+0.81*0.13*2+0.81*0.87*1)/(0.16*3+0.84*0.13*2+0.84*0.87*1)
=....+2.99% melee damage.

Now you can compare what happens on weapon skills frequency:

(0.19*3+0.81*0.13*2+0.81*0.87*1)/(0.16*3+0.84*0.13*2+0.84*0.87*1)=+3.9% number of weapons skills.

And that's assuming that all melee hits contribute to WS freq, which is far from true. In fact the exact contribution of +3% TA to WS freq is quite complicated to evaluate without use of algorithme of advanced mathematical programs; You also have to take into account actual TP gain for melee hits and weaponskills... etc. Eyeballing that ~15-20% of your TP is wasted, so this number is most likely 3.2-3.5%.

The +3% TA effect on WS is going to be small as only 2 of the 6 hits of evis/ DE can be tripled. A good estimate for this can be taken to be ( neglecting the DMG difference on the DW hit, and the fact that the 6 hits are not independant due to the 8 hits cap...)

[1.48+1.48+1+1+1+1]/[1.43+1.43+1+1+1+1]=+1.4%

so in the end, with tjis model, Triplus set up does:

+3% melee damage.
+4% WS frequency.
+1.5% WS damage.

Now you just have to look if the stats on your killa are going to beat that.

If uncapped accuracy without doubt thunder killa wins.

If you only need 4 of the 9STR of the killa to cap,
+4STR=+1 DMG=(43+43+12+12)/(43+38+11+11)=+1.8% damage.
If you need 8 STR, it is
+8STR=+2DMG=(43+43+12+12)/(43+38+10+10)=+3.7% --> beats triplus.

And that's not counting the +25 attack which is quite huge. going from 600 to 625 attack is +4% attack for example. But this part would need more careful examinations of mob def and level difference, pdif etc..

Keeping in mind that triplus's effect on WS freq is smaller ( due to TP overflow), even smaller inside abyssea due to higher TA rate.

So yeah, unless you have all str, att and acc caped, killa+2 wins.

http://s1238.photobucket.com/albums/ff494/smush2/

Can someone post pics of rudra's storm and mercy stroke ws dmg, Just curious really

Most excellent knife to tp in. Of course!

What's a Twasher?

Warp club, after you see the sad dmg when unstacked, you can warp out/logout and /cry a river.

Not going to debate on triplus and Rapidus Sax, both are best choice depend what you fight and what gear you using.