Sea Gorgets

I've finally decided to un-gimp my neck piece for ws's soon. I already know they are supposedly the best necks possible for all the ws's I use at least.

Now my question here is how do you know which gorget to go with? I know they all have the ws's listed on wiki already. But I noticed that some ws's are on multiple gorgets. Does each ws preform the same on any gorget associated to the elemental properties it has? What I mean is for example: Asuran Fists is on both Flame and Shadow, has anyone tested to see if each gorget helps the same?

If the gorgets that share a ws do indeed preform the same then I suppose I could just try to get gorgets that have the most ws for my organ money >O

Look up the gorgets on wiki, each has a list of which WS it works for. For example, for Asuran you should be using Soil Gorget only.

Well that's cool to know, I guess I'll be working on a soil gorget :)

I did look them up lol. Soil + Flame + Shadow all list Asuran. I know that already.. what I don't know is if there is any difference to any of the 3 gorgets in preformance.

If a ws is listed on multiple gorgets (b/c it has multiple elemental properties) all of the gorgets work the same. Like for SAM I got snow/shadow. Snow for Yuki and Gekko and Shadow for Kasha, Rana and Penta. I could have gotten Flame for Kasha but since Shadow works for other WS I use as well like Asuran, I got it instead. I would suggest looking at all your WS that you most often on all your jobs and try to find the gorgets that apply to the most WS. I started with Snow > Shadow > Breeze and need to pick up a Flame eventually for A Fury.

Ok, that was what I was looking for :D Thanks lol.

I was hoping that's how it was, I'm already going to need most of the gorgets just for MNK/SAM/THF and more if I decide to 75 any other jobs. Since UFOs are pretty much a need for each, the less gorgets I need the better lol :<

They are not necessarily the "best" neck piece for any WS, but they are definitely good.

Sea Torques are almost definitely "better" for single hit WS.

Example:

Justice Torque is far superior for a SAM for overall WS purposes compared to the gorgets. This is not something with which all SAM will agree, but I'd wager that 9/10 or more SAM would take 5 STR and 7 Great Katana Skill (So Basically 5 STR, 10+ Attack, 6+ Accuracy) over + .1 fTP per hit (most SAM WS are single hit) and an uncertain amount of accuracy.

That being said, Torques are rare drops, and it takes a long time to get one. While it takes effort and time (and usually UFO-associated deaths) to get your Gorgets, they are a good intermediate option pre-torque.

Where Gorgets can shine in proportion to a Torque are on Multiple Hit WS (Rampage, Asuran Fists, Guillotine, etc). That's because they get + .1 fTP PER HIT.

I have SAM and PLD 75. My SAM is very all-purpose in that I have /DNC, /THF, /WAR, and /RNG all geared up and skilled, including 5/8 Archery Merits.

I currently have Snow Gorget (Yukikaze, Gekko, Rana) and Light Gorget (Kasha, Sidewinder... also Enpi). Still, I will use Hope Torque (5 AGI, 7 Archery Skill) for Sidewinder as soon as I get my hands on one. Even with full merits, that would only push my SAM/RNG Archery Skill to 253, but that gets it around the B Skill range.

I do have Polearm skilled, and I doubt I'll get a Love Torque ever, so I may get a Torque for Penta Thrust, but for now, I'm content sticking with the Chivalrous Chain for the combination of Accuracy and STR. If I had PCC, I'd use that for Penta Thrust no doubt.

Anyway, I hope that this gives a little perspective on Gorgets as WS pieces versus other endgame options. I farmed all of my organs SAM/DNC solo (Chain 4 on Ul'Phuabo FTW) with the exception of the Yovra. For those, I found that you can do fairly well with a party of 6:

PLD/NIN, PLD/NIN, DD/THF, DD/THF, RDM/WHM, BLM/WHM

Have the DD get TP on a Hpmede or something, wait for Yovra to use a TP move, then Bounce a big SATA Skillchain across the tanks, with a BLM Burst Tier 4. Darkness or Distortion Skillchain and Blizzard 4 will put a good dent in the Yovra. You can drop one in 4 skillchains or so.

We had DRK/THF and SAM/THF and used Ground Strike > Gekko

Yeah I've heard mixed opinions on the torque vs gorget debate. Some say tp in torque only and ws in gorget, some say full time torque (referring to SAM only really here b/c of single hits and b/c the torque is just sexy :Q..) so since I don't have either torques, they are just what I'm going for atm.

EDIT: Darkmoose again, same person, both characters

Forgot to mention, it shouldn't matter which elemental properties you include, as long as it's one for that Weapon Skill.

Example:

Sidewinder (Reverberation, Transfixion, Detonation)
Aqua Gorget, Light Gorget, or Breeze Gorget

Light/Shadow require 2 Yovra Organs, so I'd recommend against them unless you have other uses for the gorget, since as in my case, where I can use it for Tachi: Kasha also.

Really, I'd say go for whichever ones you can use for the most purposes, and which ones will be easiest to farm the organs. Then again, it's up to you, so figure what will work best for you.

Aern organs you can usually get farming Ix'Aern with your Sea LS, as long as people are willing to set aside their greed and thirst for Virtue Stones to let you lot them for your Gorget. Most of the other ones can be solo or duo farmed.

Yovra Organs you will need a crew to get, so either get people who love you and just want to help, or try to talk your Sea LS into a Yovra Farming night. On said night, people who need and get organs forfeit points for the night in exchange for their organs, and people who are just helping get points per kill for the Yovra.

That way everyone is getting something for the time and effort, and it can be a nice change of pace from grinding at Ix'Aern camps or farming Ghrah chips.

Gonna just pop in some information basically giving the opposite view of Darkmoose, with all due respect.

Reading the wiki SAM forums a while back, someone worked out the sea gorgets contribute something equivalent in the region of +15 STR (specifiically for YGK, I'm unsure what the numbers are for other WS). Both sea torques and gorgets contribute to acc (gorget moreso than torques), but two handed single hit WS also seem to get a massive pDif bonus, effectively ignoring a considerable amount of defence, making that +7 atk on the torques pretty negligible.

Not saying I put much faith in all this data myself, just giving another point of view. Personally, I'd use the gorgets to WS with, and obviously TP with the relevant sea torque.

To moose/aramina if 9/10 sams would ws in torque over gorget then 9/10 sam's are fools. I have both and gorget is vastly superior to torque for ws. I believe the math was worked out on BG a while back and for sam gorget is equal to ws'ing in a +15 str neck piece. So which would you really pick for sam 5str,10att,6acc vs 15str,10acc, and after removing canceling stats 10att (torque) vs 10str/4acc. I think that the choice is pretty clear.

I'm farily certain that the only 2 cases where gorget can be argued against is faith on mnk and love on thf (DE). In the case of mnk where its unique that base damage for h2h is based on skill and the torque can raise your base b/c of the skill increase, and on DE when 5 dex and the att are such important mods to the WS.

Ufo can easily be trio'd with brd,rdm,mnk and i've duo'd before on nin,brd. So although they are tech the toughest of organ to get, i wouldn't let that get in the way of choosing those 2 gorgets. Also penta is shadow exclusive and any sam with a good pole build @ birds will tell you, its worth it.

SAM WSs are generally capped accuracy or near to, so 6acc can be largely ignored. 5STR is 2 base damage in most conditions on SAM WS, sometimes 3. On a D75 weapon with high fSTR and WSC already (let's say 15 fSTR and 68 WSC as estimates), that's an increase of 3/(75 + 15 + 68) = ~1.90% increase in damage on the first hit.

Using a gorget gives you an increase of (1.975 - 1.875) / 1.875 = 5.33% increase in damage on the first hit, and the 10atk isn't gonna make up that difference. Gorget is comfortably better than Justice Torque.



Not true. The +0.1fTP is exclusive to only the first hit. In a multihit WS, the first hit has x fTP, where x is a value defined by the WS and all subsequent hits are at 1.0 fTP (this also applies to Double Attacks etc, any kind of additional hit). The gorget amplifies the accuracy of all hits (+10) but only the fTP of the first.

EDIT:



This is pretty much true. Looking at my (very rough) above math;





You can roughly see that 3x ~1.90% will beat 5.33%, and that ~1.90% resulted from 5STR, so 3x 5STR = ~15STR ...

Well, it appears I stand corrected, but until I get my J.Torque (think I'm 3rd in line atm), and I can compare them in my own use, then it will all just be numbers on the internet.

I have a lot of people tell me what I can and can't do on a given job/subjob or with certain gear, and I sometimes we have to just agree to disagree and leave it alone. I don't know how many Bards tell me Nursemaid's Harp is worthless, and I use it regularly in Einherjar and have really problems whatsoever. Maybe it's only worthless because a many Bards have super-gimped string skill by level 60. Anyway, that's a different debate.

I don't use windower, so I don't parse. I can only go by hours and hours of farming similar mobs to make assessments on what gear has what impact.

As someone who has Gorgets and no Torque yet, what I can say about the Gorgets so far is that they are good and worth the effort to get. Even once I get the Torque, it's not like I'll throw them away.

However, once I do get the =J.Torque, I will be sure to give both a very hearty test-run in direct comparison and see how I feel.

What I do notice about WS with the Gorgets is that my damage didn't seem to rise very noticeably, but it does seem a lot more consistent.

I must say, I do like your attitude. Most of the time these kind of debates end up turning into heated arguments for no reason; no point fighting over something like this.

Gorgets will be very consistent at boosting damage since when you add other stats, the amount they increase it is relative to how much is already there; gorgets always add the same % damage at any given % of TP.

While I understand why you would want to wait / get your torque / see which you like better, I can almost promise that even after hours of using both it is unlikely that you would agree with Raen and I. There are a couple reasons for this.

First, we're talking about a 2% increase in damage vs a 5% increase in damage; in a game that is built upon improving your character in very small incremints, this is a significant boost. However! These types of increases are going to be virtually impossible to "eyeball". It is only after using an unbiased parser for an extened period of time are you going to be able to clearly see the difference.

That leads to my other point. Human bias. If you go into testing already hoping that one is going to win over the other, I can promise that to you the Torque will win easily. Espc where the difference between the two is less than 10% difference. Too many times I have come across sams who swear on stupid crap like shin or ushi being better than hagun b/c they tried both and the shin/ushi just constantly did higher damage. Its very difficult for someone to get a piece of gear like Justice Torque that most likely took hours of work to get and have it lose out to a piece of gear that was much more easily aquired. While I'm not going to tell you to not test both out once you get it, remember that there have been ALOT of people before you that have already done it, over and over again so you don't have to.

Just gonna chime in here really quickly on a couple of subjects. I'm a 75 Monk and have the Flame Gorget for WS's. I've tested it out a bit and tbh... I don't really see a difference in Asuran Fists damage between the Chiv Chain and the Gorget when I land all hits with both. However... That being said... I do notice the difference in accuracy and I tend to do full damage with the gorget more often than I do with the Chiv Chain.

Also... For the person that said they don't parse b/c they don't use Windower. You can still use a parser with 'Windowed' mode that they built-in to FFXI. I prefer KParser (since it's the only one I've gotten to work. lol). You should be able to find it on Google or I can e-mail it to you if you'd like. I forget the url for the site.

@ Raen: I agree, it's nice to have a relatively nice discourse about this type of stuff without the trolls and flamers chiming in.

@ Tbest: Thanks for the info on the non-windower parser, I'll have to check it out. If I have trouble finding it I'll send you a PM on here, or if you have it handy, feel free to PM it to me.

Definitely human bias comes into play, and I had my doubts about the gorgets even before I'd gotten any, but I can say, using my perception alone, that it while it doesn't make a world-changing difference, it is still noticeable even without a parse.

Definitely the easiest difference that I can notice are in damage consistency and in WS Accuracy. However, WS damage is still noticeable. I also make sure to swap back to Chivalrous Chain as soon as done with WS.

Anyone with SAM 75 can verify that WS Accuracy for SAM can be "spooty" at times, even with full merits and truckloads of accuracy gear. It is somewhat universally accepted that there is a 95% cap on accuracy, but for some reason SAM Weapon Skill Accuracy seems to belie even this.

As far as the Hagun vs. other GK debates, I will give my two gils on the subject since we are having somewhat seemingly intelligent discussion.

However, my hope is that people will not derail this thread on SEA GORGETS for that debate.

My two gils on the subject, though. In most endgame events where I'm skillchaining, I very often have 250% TP or more by the time that my skillchain partner has enough TP to WS. For that matter, regardless of their TP, I typically have 200-250 at a minimum before my SATA timers are ready.

As soon as you surpass 200%, the numbers of the Hagun start to drop off compared to the others. Up to 200%, it's no question that Hagun is the winner. This means that for Merit PT, sea/sky farming, etc. Hagun is a win. However, if you like to merit on SAM/DNC, as I do, Soboro wins.

For that reason, I have put off purchasing of a Hagun for a long time. I stand proudly by my Onimaru and am glad to say that I had one even when it went for 20k and many people considered it to be crap.

Back to how this factors into the SEA GORGET issue. As with anything else in FFXI, there are always arguments about numbers. However, not everyone plays any job exactly the same as everyone else.

The Hagun vs. Shin/Oni/Ushu/etc. thing is a perfect example of this. For some people, if all they do on SAM is TP-Burn, a Hagun is king. If someone else only does thing where they are using WS at high or max TP, it's not necessarily the best one.

Everyone needs to take whatever advice they get from other people and weigh it against how you play a job. Then, if you can, try stuff out by borrowing from a friend before you commit to it with your own purchase (Obviously not something you can do with r/e gear).

I borrowed a Hagun, and after using it I decided that while I will still get one, I'll keep trying my luck at the ENM (0/16 on the drop so far) and dedicate my gil to things that will help me in other ways.

The Gorgets take not much except time, and a smallish amount of gil. You'll probably gain more EXP farming the organs than you'll lose dying for them, so in the end, it's worth the effort even if it just ends up being something you try, don't like, and INV -1.

BTW, I need to update my Linkshell Community thing on this character so it'll update my info.

Well I'm looking at needing 3 gorgets for minimum -space. Flame and Thunder should cover all my MNK ws's I use, and Snow and Flame can cover the 4 main SAM ones.

A lot of good information here to look over. Thanks guys/gals for a non-troll infested thread thus far lol.

Edited for Tbest's liking :D

Ummm... You mean 'thread'.. Not 'forum'. :P

And I mis-spoke earlier about the Parser. >.>

I think I said KParser instead of DirectParse (the one I use and that actually works for me) because it's the latest one I've tried to install and get to work with FF. >.>

Anyway... Here's a link to DirectParse (I was bored. >.>) =)

I'd be interested to see a parse between Faith Torque and Sea gorgets seeing how H2H works different than any other weapon type.

>.> I'd love to do the parse... But no torque for me. ;.; I do however have 2 HQ organs to pop the Jailer though.

For SAM, Snow is pretty much a given because it covers 3 of 4 major WS (Yukikaze/Gekko/Rana). How you choose to cover Kasha probably depends mostly on your other jobs and their primary WS properties. Shadow covers Kasha/Penta, but for me who likes to SAM/RNG (damn, it is so much fun), Light made the most sense because of Sidewinder being included. I still predict that Hope Torque will be better than the Gorget for SAM/RNG because of the low base skill, but any input from someone who uses SAM/RNG and has both would be appreciated. I really don't use Polearm much except for Jailer of Temperance or Apollyon, so getting a Gorget/Torque just for that purpose is not a priority at the moment.

Ideally you can scan through the "In The Name of Science" wiki article, compare inventory required against what you'll need to farm to get it, and make a decision.

I have no clue how Light Gorget affects Atonement, because of the way its damage is calculated, so if anyone has tested this, it would be really interesting to know. I almost imagine that the effect of a Gorget on Atonement would be none, unless perhaps SE has made it so that instead of an fTP/Accuracy boost, you get a better damage result from comparable enmity. I'm sure that from a programming angle it would not be that difficult, but I just can't say whether or not SE thought about it. It seems like exactly the kind of thing that they would miss or exclude.

I'd use Flame to cover Kasha b/c my main is MNK and not SAM so Flame being the best MNK gorget that also has Kasha on it, it is thus my pick. :D

Edit: Yeah I'd need Shadow also for Penta SAM. Atm though I've retired that aspect of the job until I can get a Tomoe.

Since there is already a lot of discussion on SAM.. What are people's thoughts on ear slots and grips?

For ears Bushi of course in one slot(for GKT at least) and the other I would assume Brutal for the DA+5%. I don't see 2STR > DA+5% ever working out.

For grips, I've been stuck on Mythril Grip+1 forever, but I've never tried out Pole Grip for the DA+2% or Axe Grip for the 3STR.

Edit: For ears I'm referring to for ws only.

Pole is best unless you're using Soboro.

For ears, its Bushi/Brutal. If you picked Suppa for your DM earring, then Merman or Fowling would replace Bushi.

Grips, Pole Grip is better in the long run.

Earrings:

Bushi and Brutal or if you took Suppa or something Fowling/Merman and Brutal. That's for both TP and WS. If you have Bushi and Brutal, they are full time earrings for just about anything unless you swap in an Evasion Earring for your Evasion set.

Only real exception is if you like to SAM/DRG. In that case, spend the cash and get Wyvern Earring. It's really that good. Probably if you do that, I'd go Wyvern to TP and swap to Brutal for WS, but I'd have to test it to see what worked best. My /DRG is really my only SAM sub not up to 37, but I used SAM/DRG for almost all of 30-50 and it was insane. Actually tanked for a party in Citadel that way.

Grips:

Great Katana: Pole Grip for anything but Soboro. Soboro, use Platinum +1.

I'd recommend Platinum +1 for Polearm, too. With base capped skill at 240, you need all the accuracy you can get, which means probably WS in Optical Hat unless you have Shura Zunari Kabuto, too.

If you /RNG, you'll probably be using Soboro, so again, Platinum +1. However, Axe Grip does become an option because SAM/RNG needs to stack so much R.Acc on the other slots that they should try to squeak in some STR where they can.

Just remember, once you're 75 and meritted, almost everything revolves around a 6-hit build. Haste Build, the question is "how much haste can I get and still keep my 6-hit?", not simply "how much haste can I get?" Anything above 100 TP is wasted, so a carefully calcuated Store TP setup will get you anywhere from 100-102 TP while maximizing whatever other stats you wish to emphasize with a gear set. You also need to factor in that you'll probably dump some Store TP in your WS build, so you need your setup to get you to 100 TP with the WS TP return + 5 additional hits in your normal gear.

The only setup in which I willingly sacrifice my 6-hit is my Evasion setup, which gives me +20 Evasion Skill and +32 Evasion. I choose to keep Bushi on the 2nd ear instead of Brutal because of the +5 Parrying. With the Brutal, I'd still have the 6-hit. I've tried it both ways, and I just prefer that.

Tbh for penta I'd use Hissho Hachimaki over O.hat or Shura Kabuto.

Me and a friend did some easy test today with Namas arrow WS + light gorget in west sarutabaruta on the weakest mobs, and wiki is wrong because with light gorget the WS did exactly the same damage as with snow gorget for Namas Arrow(about 70 more damage than w/o gorget at all) so logically light gorget should work with Tachi kaiten also since it have light attribute.