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Apathy getting attacked for killing PW
Serveur: Seraph
Game: FFXI
Posts: 429
By Seraph.Kyaaadaa 2009-02-17 17:44:27
Wooooodum said: Let's not even entertain the notion that Square Enix will act on this. The poster's just wasting his time. Let him. No need to start discussing end of the days because loggers are going to be banned. While I would say that SE should have enough common sense to know that the "logging" tactic is widely practiced, they do have a tendency to perform actions that I've previously thought "they wouldn't do that, it's not just." I don't believe the banning will happen, but I wouldn't dismiss it either. It IS SE
Garuda.Mineyl
Serveur: Garuda
Game: FFXI
Posts: 13
By Garuda.Mineyl 2009-02-17 17:45:07
I seriously question the OP's judgment.
I am calling for an investigation of this "victory" as a matter of misconduct by the Special Task Force. I believe the Apathy linkshell (those members who took part in this fight) should be penalized under "Actions Which Might Result in an Unfair Advantage" -- as stated in Article Q12652 in your Q&A on your official site.
Unfair advantage? News flash: everyone can log out of the game. I'm sure if you just open up your main menu and press left or right, you will see it there at the bottom of the list of commands!
/sigh
Serveur: Seraph
Game: FFXI
Posts: 429
By Seraph.Kyaaadaa 2009-02-17 17:46:06
The OP probably reading this just going /WRIST!!
Serveur: Garuda
Game: FFXI
Posts: 6310
By Garuda.Wooooodum 2009-02-17 17:47:11
When they ban, they ban for reasons. That's the bottom line. They don't ban for no reason "because they feel like it" as someone said in one of that blog's comments. Sure, they've made some strange decisions in the past and done things that've surprised the community, but one thing they don't do is ban for no reason.
Logging out isn't cheating or bending game mechanics. Should they be able to keep us logged into the game against our will because they don't want us to clear our hate? They could quite easily have coded it so logging out doesn't clear hate, but they didn't.
It's just somebody who was banned lashing out because he wants to take other people down with him. He's obviously got too much spare time since being banned if he's sending that to the STF.
PS. Only the first sentence is directed at you, Kyaaadaa. The rest is just a rant =P
Serveur: Seraph
Game: FFXI
Posts: 429
By Seraph.Kyaaadaa 2009-02-17 17:48:58
They do have the mechanic to keep you in the game, provided that a mob tags you as your resting.
Caitsith.Surge
Serveur: Caitsith
Game: FFXI
Posts: 98
By Caitsith.Surge 2009-02-17 17:53:40
I think the strat apathy used is fair. To think they are in viloation of the code of conduct is a pissy way of showing how mad you are because you're werent the first. Everyone has used this and will continue to use this. If you can make a strat that kills a 18hr+ fight and you do it in 2hrs is great appluase. But to think someone would get that upset becuase the failed in doing it isnt action to get a WHOLE ls suspended or banned because they used it. Im prolly restating the obvious but who ever made that post should just shut up and quit bit**ing.
Gilgamesh.Xarchangel
Serveur: Gilgamesh
Game: FFXI
Posts: 192
By Gilgamesh.Xarchangel 2009-02-17 17:54:49
just about everyone I know has logged to avoid dying or to erase some sort of hate... hmmm... maybe we should ban everyone... and while we are banning people for loggin, lets ban everyone that has ever dropped a glass in dynamis and came back in... or maybe ban people that run into besieged and die on purpose just to hp for free... the list can go on forever.
(this is sarcasim, if you can not tell)
anybody can inturpret something to become negative if they think about it enough. they still won, and congratulations to them.
Serveur: Seraph
Game: FFXI
Posts: 429
By Seraph.Kyaaadaa 2009-02-17 17:57:02
Xarchangel said: just about everyone I know has logged to avoid dying or to erase some sort of hate... hmmm... maybe we should ban everyone... and while we are banning people for loggin, lets ban everyone that has ever dropped a glass in dynamis and came back in... or maybe ban people that run into besieged and die on purpose just to hp for free... the list can go on forever.
(this is sarcasim, if you can not tell)
anybody can inturpret something to become negative if they think about it enough. they still won, and congratulations to them. Don't give the OP another idea for a worthless thread!
Serveur: Garuda
Game: FFXI
Posts: 859
By Garuda.Littledarc 2009-02-17 17:57:32
i think just logging out is fine. i am positive they watched and went over the logs of the fight just in case there was any wrong doing. as stated before anyone can log out, it's not like they were duplicating items. i'm glad someone beat him and i am happy they put some of their strategy up for others. be happy they told you what they did.
Ragnarok.Anye
Serveur: Ragnarok
Game: FFXI
Posts: 5449
By Ragnarok.Anye 2009-02-17 18:09:40
Kindle said: a Red Mage (almost certainly a PLD/RDM, probably), casts Area of Effect Damage over Time spells to gain massive emnity on Pandemonium Warden and all the avatars in play. MASSIVE "EMNITY" WITH DIAGA GOGO!!!
Serveur: Odin
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1304
By Odin.Dirtyfinger 2009-02-17 18:13:26
They didn't keep killing PW a secret to themselves as they did let the whole world know, so you cannot say their intentions were malicious. :)
Ban these players: No Suspend these players: No Remove the items and EXP: Yes
If SE decide to ban/suspend said people, then i am equally guilty as charged as i have also logged off hate several times in my solo BLM days, and there is no difference between them and i.
Unicorn.Tavlov
Serveur: Unicorn
Game: FFXI
Posts: 830
By Unicorn.Tavlov 2009-02-17 18:20:30
If any of those 3 things happens, that would just be very pathetic on SE's part.
Caitsith.Surge
Serveur: Caitsith
Game: FFXI
Posts: 98
By Caitsith.Surge 2009-02-17 18:23:15
Dirtyfinger said: They didn't keep killing PW a secret to themselves as they did let the whole world know, so you cannot say their intentions were malicious. :)
Ban these players: No Suspend these players: No Remove the items and EXP: Yes
If SE decide to ban/suspend said people, then i am equally guilty as charged as i have also logged off hate several times in my solo BLM days, and there is no difference between them and i. I dont think the items shouldnt be removed either. They're hard work should be payed for. A hard 2hr fight getting a great piece of armor and almost 3mil worth of drops isnt a meh thing. Edit: I dont thinkg the items should be removed.
Serveur: Odin
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1304
By Odin.Dirtyfinger 2009-02-17 18:27:22
Yea it is a good point, they did win without really breaking the rules as such (Not read ToS in long time).
I was merely suggesting a worse case scenario.
But SE really need to get their ***together.
Serveur: Garuda
Game: FFXI
Posts: 6310
By Garuda.Wooooodum 2009-02-17 18:28:29
Dirtyfinger said: But SE really need to get there ***together. Why? What have they done? You're saying they need to get their ***together over a hypothetical scenario you just made up?
Serveur: Odin
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1304
By Odin.Dirtyfinger 2009-02-17 18:30:18
Sort out and state the do's and don't of this game in more detail.
Serveur: Garuda
Game: FFXI
Posts: 6310
By Garuda.Wooooodum 2009-02-17 18:31:05
Should be clearer next time :)
Unicorn.Tavlov
Serveur: Unicorn
Game: FFXI
Posts: 830
By Unicorn.Tavlov 2009-02-17 18:32:51
They do according to the US legal system.
Caitsith.Surge
Serveur: Caitsith
Game: FFXI
Posts: 98
By Caitsith.Surge 2009-02-17 18:33:20
lol i hope nothing is done cause if something does happen then they need to do it to the greater population of the game. We all have done it and its greatly recommended for linking huge in dynamis
Bahamut.Bojack
Serveur: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2076
By Bahamut.Bojack 2009-02-17 18:37:39
They'll prolly just do something stupid like give PW a memory so you'd have to stay logged out for 30+ minutes before he forgets that he hates you, lol.
Caitsith.Surge
Serveur: Caitsith
Game: FFXI
Posts: 98
By Caitsith.Surge 2009-02-17 18:42:56
lol i hope not that will conflict with his 2hr depop
Serveur: Cerberus
Game: FFXI
Posts: 148
By Cerberus.Cecilharvey 2009-02-17 19:03:38
Korpg said: If you managed to get everyone banned from Apathy because of this, then you will get everyone banned who had to sleep a mob or link, then /logout to erase hate.
Because by your definition of what Apathy did, those who had to sleep/logout so they wouldn't die and had to HP and lose all that exp did the exact same thing as Apathy. There is no difference between the two. Thats exactly what come to my mind in the 1st second i read that 1st post, how much BLMs ES SleepgaII & Log off when they are soloing somes pets & link the Master mobs ? this happen 100 times a day on every servers, where is the violation in doing this ? all the time i linked a pet & his master mob on BLM while i was soloing i should have died to please "SE" what the *** is that ? lol
Serveur: Seraph
Game: FFXI
Posts: 429
By Seraph.Kyaaadaa 2009-02-17 19:11:53
Agreed with Cecil, just on a BLM case basis, soloing in Mount Zhao, aggroing a moth or linking another wammy, ES Sleega and gtfo. That this dupe brings it up against a PW fight while he himself has probably done it on many occassions simply to justify his jealousy is absurd.
Serveur: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 5
By Asura.Yoshikii 2009-02-17 19:14:21
Cecilharvey said: Thats exactly what come to my mind in the 1st second i read thiat 1st post, how much BLM ES SleepgaII & Log off when they are soloing somes pets & link the Master mobs ? where is the violation in doing this ? all the time i linked a pet & his master mob on BLM i should have died to please "SE" what the *** is that ? lol BEST QUOTE!
Siren.Bungie
Serveur: Siren
Game: FFXI
Posts: 272
By Siren.Bungie 2009-02-17 19:15:59
SE >> "I do what i waaaant"
Serveur: Seraph
Game: FFXI
Posts: 429
By Seraph.Kyaaadaa 2009-02-17 19:21:16
"I'm outta control! I do what I want! Whatever! Whatever!"
Remora.Dubont
Serveur: Remora
Game: FFXI
Posts: 629
By Remora.Dubont 2009-02-17 20:13:35
Where as I don't agree anything should happen to Apathy for beating PW (props to them b/c hell i never even hurt the thing -.-) I do despise Apathy not just for being PW, but for many other things. They seem to have straightened up now but not to long ago they were the #1 fish/tele/claim/PL bot LS on Remora followed by Lovebanana So there will always be resentment from where i stand.
Remora.Kindle
Serveur: Remora
Game: FFXI
Posts: 458
By Remora.Kindle 2009-02-17 20:15:14
Dubont said: Where as I don't agree anything should happen to Apathy for beating PW (props to them b/c hell i never even hurt the thing -.-) I do despise Apathy not just for being PW, but for many other things. They seem to have straightened up now but not to long ago they were the #1 fish/tele/claim/PL bot LS on Remora followed by Lovebanana So there will always be resentment from where i stand. True that
So, Square-Enix: Logging Hate is Legal AND Legitimate?? We need to talk... (I could've put this as a "Flamage Part 11", but part of the reason I didn't is that the bulk of this post is going to the Special Task Force.)
In light of the actions of the Special Task Force and other disciplinary entities in the last two weeks, I can only say that I have been encouraged that steps may finally be taken to curtail high-end player abuse of the game...
... that is, until I found the official POL website last night, and the most recent article thereon.
(As of about 5:30 PM PST on February 5, it still is the most recent story -- a link to the Allakazham article on the defeat of Pandemonium Warden by the Apathy linkshell on Remora.)
I am calling for an investigation of this "victory" as a matter of misconduct by the Special Task Force. I believe the Apathy linkshell (those members who took part in this fight) should be penalized under "Actions Which Might Result in an Unfair Advantage" -- as stated in Article Q12652 in your Q&A on your official site.
The specific charge against the "victors" is the following, and I quote from your site:
"[Game Exploits]
Players who take advantage of in-game mechanics not intended as normal means of game play may have their account suspended and all items or experience obtained through those means confiscated."
I am specifically referring to the concept of what has become called "logging hate". My understanding of it is as follows:
At three points in the final Pandemonium Warden fight, PW puts out a series of avatars and then casts Astral Flow (the summoner 2-hour). If the Blood Pacts are then allowed to resolve, everyone wipes and the fight fails.
So, apparently, what Apathy did then was:
-- One person, probably a Red Mage (almost certainly a PLD/RDM, probably), casts Area of Effect Damage over Time spells to gain massive emnity on Pandemonium Warden and all the avatars in play.
-- Said player then runs like Hell. Not a problem to this point -- this often happens in Dynamis.
-- Here's the problem: All other players then log out of the game, by pre-arranged agreement.
-- The player being chased by the mob of monsters dies, sacrificing himself to allow the party the needed time to log out. Logging out clears the list of all players in the fight with emnity to Pandemonium Warden. With no remaining players alive with emnity to Pandemonium Warden, the NM will go back to his spawn point and, essentially, stop. No further aggressive action will be taken until someone is aggressive to it. During this time, everyone else logs back in (the timeframe I heard was 2 minutes), and the sacrificial lamb is raised and healed.
Repeat as needed to avoid Astral Flow wiping the entire linkshell.
The use of logging out to avoid Astral Flow and to clear all emnity to Pandemonium Warden is the use of a game mechanic (logging out) not intended as a means of normal game play.
There is only one normal game-play use of logging out: to leave Final Fantasy XI. The use of logging out to clear hate, as well as to force Pandemonium Warden to cease attacking, is not only an exploitation of the code of logging out, but also of the code of the specific traits of Pandemonium Warden (in that it ceases all attacks and will not attack further, once it's emnity list is clear, until new emnity is made against it).
This action is a clear violation of the rules against Game Exploits, quoted above.
Two weeks ago, you took the strongest action yet against long-time players who have been cheating the system. The posting of this article to the official FFXI website gives not only legality to this strategy, but legitimacy as well.
That cannot be allowed to stand.
Not only is the strategy illegal, by your own statements in your Q&A (unless you really want to try to claim there are other normal game-play uses of logging out of the game -- and I would like to hear them now if there are!!), but the posting of the "victory" on the official site gives the strategy legitimacy (something not even the Kraken Club DRK strategy had when Absolute Virtue was made a 2-hour situation).
The article must come down. The Special Task Force needs to investigate this. The "champions", as it were, need to be suspended, if not banned.
Failure to do so will leave players with a question which I am certain you do not want them to have. That question being: Since, if this strategy is allowed, Square-Enix allows and encourages the use of only those exploits which they CHOOSE to have allowed, which exploits are allowed and which are not?
If you want legitimacy regarding keeping the game fair, that is a question you must avoid at all cost. Investigate this "victory".
(On edit: And for those who don't think I'm serious -- and this isn't the last e-mail I'm running to SE damned soon, this was sent to the STF from the Service and Support link (with small editing for clarity and to get it down to space... 6:21 PM PST 2/5/09)
Here is the link the above:
http://darkrenegadesmusings.blogspot.com/2009/02/so-square-enix-logging-hate-is-legal.html
This is something i found on BG, which i found interesting. This not my own personal post. The link sends you to who's it is.
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