Pyrosoul is best for Pyrrhic Kleos outside Abyssea (which is only marginally better than Rudra's and isn't very useful now that I have Twashtar), but yeah I don't really need to carry it inside Abyssea. And yeah, I don't carry Warwolf in Abyssea. It was harder to fit stuff back when I used Soil/Aqua gorgets/belts on WSs, but math has prevailed. I neglected to list the JSE shoes, so that's inventory +1. If I feel like tolerating Inventory -1, I have an Orochi Nodowa I can use. Garden Bangles would be anal retentiveness bordering on a serious problem, so I don't have them.
I personally can move ***around in my inventory so that I always have everything I need, but it's annoying to not have 5-10 free inventory to drop ***into. Not that I need it, but I could make a more complete Step Acc and MAcc build if I had more space. All of my complaints with the system would be solved if items from the pool and chests would drop into my Mog Satchel instead of clogging my active inventory. I don't see a real reason why they couldn't design it that way.
There are very rare times (like times when I'm full-timing Fan Dance and blood tanking somethings) when I'd like to also be able to hold a PDT set, but those times are few and far between and I gave up on them a long time ago. I still have the DS Harness/Subligar +1 from that though, haha.
Oh yeah, and I'll probably be trying to get a better ring. They're 6/5 and 4/6 right now (MDT/PDT). If I do, I can leave out Merman's Earring. -23% MDT, -18% PDT would be my minimum then.
I have a bigger problem finding enough macro slots for DNC JAs than fitting gear in. Part of which is my unwillingness to swap sets due to my time on PS2 where it creates a lot of lag.
Ninian's DNC Guide
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Ninian's DNC Guide
Should be Rajas/Epona's for pyrrhic outside abyssea if the mods on wiki are correct. Exact improvement from epona's is tough without knowing if TA takes priority over DA, but even at 50% DA(Saber, if it was ever accurately calculated feel free to correct) you're looking at:
(3%)Triple 97% remaining 53%(51.41% global)Double 47%(45.59% global)Single = .09 + 1.0282 + .4559 = 1.5741 avg swings vs 50% double 50% single = 1.5 avg swings Net gain of 4.94%(*14/15 to factor for ftp loss if DA is on first swing.. only effectively gives +66.6% damage from additional swing = 4.61%). 7 STR @ 20% wsc 25% fstr = 3.15 base dmg 72 base str = 14d 79 base dex = 23d Any weapon from this year = 40d 80.15 / 77 = 4.09%, less once you add ws gear's wsc and fstr, even assuming fstr is uncapped For Rajas vs Pyrosoul it's easier, ofc, since Rajas has 1.5 WSC from dex, 1.0 WSC from str, and 1.25 fSTR to Pyrosoul's 1.4 WSC and 1.75 fSTR. The only way Pyrosoul can win is if it increases both WSC and fSTR while Rajas increases neither through rounding(and still lose minimal benefit of subtle blow and store tp). I agree that it's inconvenient and it'd be nice if you could have pool sort to satchel or sack, but I still feel the inventory problem fad is just a leftover excuse from ages past. I had all sorts of issues before, but working with 478 total spaces.. half of which are accessible on the road, and unlimited storage for old gear they're completely gone now. I thougth everyone knew TA has priority over DA now...
I didn't know someone tested it, I assumed it because it's logical. If someone did, good to know.
There's a test on Alla iirc, the THF board. I didn't read it directly but Motenten said that DA overriding TA was outside confidence interval for the data provided.
Also that math is a bit off... you were more calculating the difference in tping not ws. Tping with only 1 weapon at that lol.
Epona's is more like 1.3% dmg increase on pyric given a 50% double attack rate and only triple from it. Unless they were using gorget/belt. Would have to factor in acc then :( Also you didn't apply the lvl correct factor to the ws mod... so it's only 2.94 to base dmg Are you one of those people who think you can only DA once per hand, can DA twice on raging rush, and can DA 3 times on guillotine for no reason besides 'someone said so'? You might lose some hits from the 8hit cap on top end, but it still shouldn't drastically reduce the effect of epona's.
As far as that debate goes, the only readable thread about it that I can recall involved someone not getting a 3-DA raging rush over X amount of ws. Considering the odds of it, their dataset was too low to conclude anything. Someone had a screenshot of guillotine giving a tp return consistant with 3 DAs, and other people insisted dual wield can DA once per hand. I don't understand the logic behind this, neither programming nor standard: why would there be an arbitrary cap on DAs during a WS when 2handed ones can DA multiple times? For that matter, can rampage DA twice without dual wielding? It would be silly if it couldn't, considering raging rush can. Again, missed a lot of stuff lately, so if it was ever properly addressed feel free to point me there.. just been looking at it as a common misconception drawn from a subpar dataset. Leviathan.Thornyy said: Are you one of those people who think you can only DA once per hand, can DA twice on raging rush, and can DA 3 times on guillotine for no reason besides 'someone said so'? You might lose some hits from the 8hit cap on top end, but it still shouldn't drastically reduce the effect of epona's. And yeah I factored in hit cap... though I just pretended a 2nd triple attack couldn't occur even though technically it can but you'd only get 1 extra hit. You still didn't factor in the fact that the ws has 5 hits without DA or TA procs if you are dualweilding and the first hit has 1.5 ftp. Even assuming only 1 possible proc... before acc you'd average ftps 6.0 and 6.045 which would put eponas down .75% dmg increase A proc per hit on WS seems most consistant with my results from victory smite and ukko's, I've never seen a proper test done contradicting it but I have seen a screenshot of a guillotine with 3 DAs. For a while, people insisted that 2h WS could only DA once and dual wielded could DA twice but obviously that isn't true.. whole thing just seems like an arbitrary conclusion drawn from people not watching their tp returns.
Unless you're arguing this is untrue(which it seems you are), you only need to calculate damage per swing and multiply by DA/TA rate. Accuracy is irrelevant as it effects the results in equal proportion whether you add extra hits or extra damage per hit. You can use a 14/15 modifier to account for ftp loss, as you still get 2/3 the ftp from the first hit and equal ftp to any other hit. Obviously, you can't DA or TA on what's already a DA or TA. If you believe you only get X amount of chances to DA/TA, then the whole discussion is irrelevant until it's properly addressed, as in that case you'd be using Rajas/Pyrosoul. I just have difficulty believing it with the samples I've seen and been given, haven't seen any testing on this done post-abyssea and pre-abyssea you were looking at pretty slim DA numbers and no TA(THF gets it, but dancing edge was their go-to ws and one TA already hits 8-swing cap). It's not the least bit unreasonable for someone to do 100-300 WS and come out with a max of 2 procs, and again, I never saw a decent sample. Leviathan.Thornyy said: A proc per hit on WS seems most consistant with my results from victory smite and ukko's, I've never seen a proper test done contradicting it but I have seen a screenshot of a guillotine with 3 DAs. For a while, people insisted that 2h WS could only DA once and dual wielded could DA twice but obviously that isn't true.. whole thing just seems like an arbitrary conclusion drawn from people not watching their tp returns. Leviathan.Thornyy said: A proc per hit on WS seems most consistant with my results from victory smite and ukko's, I've never seen a proper test done contradicting it but I have seen a screenshot of a guillotine with 3 DAs. And how exactly do you screenshot that lol? I mean it's so easy to mistake a melee hit getting in and missing a main hit or gear not switching right etc. And you know people don't always account for that stuff. And of course conserve Was on BG, at least a year before abyssea existed. Conserve TP wasn't available.
@Dasva: Screenshot was of TP return with no damage taken in log(shadows) and a picture of gear. As far as smite, I have not gotten an 8-hit that I noticed, however: With /WAR, brutal, epona's, and VV(was a while ago, used with gnarled horn and razed ruins before anyone had apocalypse) expected multi-attack rate with one chance per hand should be: 3% TA 97% { 23% DA - 22.31% global 77% single - 74.69% global } Looking at all the options: TA - TA (.03^2) = .0009 TA - DA (.03*.2231) = .0067 TA - Single (.03*.7469) = .0224 DA - TA = .0067 DA - DA (.2231^2) = .04977 DA - Single (.7469 * .2231) = .1666 Single - TA = .02241 Single - DA = .1666 Single - Single (.7469^2) = .5579 55.79% chance of normal tp return. .3332 of the remaining is just one additional hit, which will be overlooked if (.95^5 = .7737) fails. Result being a 63.3% chance of no visible DAs on tp return, in 90 minutes screwing around and WSing only 100% mobs(side target, avoids ruby light and subsequently suppresses most risk of losing DA/TA to overkill) I had 162 recorded WS(3 one shots with at least 2 DAs or 1 TA) and only 66 normal or less tp returns. Again, not a huge sample, but it's easier to draw a pattern from a sample looking for average multihit rate than it is to draw a pattern from a sample looking for a very very rare result of multiple multihits. Obviously, if looking to conclusively prove how this works, the best option is to record TP return of 1000-2000 WS, ideally ones that are only 3-4 hits. As far as I know though, no parser will catch tp return and you have to WS while not getting hit yourself(or at least observe the hit) to get accurate data. While this wouldn't necessarily load a 3x multihit, it'd at least show the average distribution in a manner such that it can be discerned. My sample was just to prove smite's STR mod was higher than 50%, but I had recorded TP returns which made it worth looking back at. Ukko's ***was anecdotal, but it seems to DA at a similar rate to Smite despite having much more double attack backing it. Can write that off as irrelevant since it's completely eyeballed. I don't know... I did a lot of Raging Rushes in Abyssea with 34% Double Attack (AF3 legs/head +2, Brutal, VV) and have yet to see a 3-DA return. There should be a 4% chance of it occurring, so it probably can't occur. Also, people going by TP returns from WSs often make the mistake of assuming +1 TP = +1 hit and don't count their Store TP. On WAR at 75, my TP return used to be:
18 TP - +0 hits 19 TP - +1 hit 21 TP - +2 hits Also, Pyrosoul adds fSTR, mod, and Attack outside Abyssea. Assuming a base DA rate of 27% (Brutal and Saber Dance), Epona's effectively adds: (5.5+.03*2*2+.3*.97*2 - .03*.03*1)/(5.5+.54) = 1.027 (+2.7%) Assuming 123 STR (without a ring), 141 DEX, and Twashtar against a 77 VIT target, Pyrosoul adds 2 base damage from mod and 2 from fSTR and 4 Attack. With RCBs, 5 Attack going from 620 to 625. 118/114 = 1.035 625/620 = 1.008 1.035 * 1.008 = 1.043 (+4.3%) So it wins, but not by a ton. Probably not worth the inventory -1, considering I don't have PK macroed anymore (thanks to deleting my macros and Rudra's Storm). I haven't actually been able to log in since I did all this gear-optimization, so I probably wouldn't have been carrying it anyway, but it was just something I remembered having on me. The one use I can still see for PK would be using it to give Evasion Down. Between Desperate flourish/Rudra's Storm for Gravity, Quick Step, and Pyrrhic Kleos, DNC can really -Eva debuff the crap out of anything those stick on... not that I have any of them macroed anymore. Also I notice most people testing do gear swaps and don't watch when they are doing it so might get a regular hit in there etc. Anyways until you actually get a 8 hit on a 4 hit ws incluing any offhand hits without having any triple attack then you haven't proofed you can proc each hit
Also your calc is assuming the worst saber dance numbers you'd have. You are missing the offhand hit. And it looks like you are using 25% instead of 27% double attack on the demonminator. Also technically 2 triple attacks can happen... it's one will basicaly end up counting as a double attack. Sorry, if that was to me I Editted my post while you were posting. Jet Lag has me a little foggy.
My (-.03*.03*1) takes care of the two-TA chance, where you overflow one hit. Aw yeah think it still said 2 when I saw it.... still need +.54 in the denominator though. Otherwise you are taking out the ring and aethling mantle on the bottom.
Ah, sorry. I had been toying with the idea of a DA+2% Mirke and Cerb Mantle +1, but forgot to flip things around when I went back.
I should also note that adding a few STR or VIT can make Epona's better. Pyrosoul gets lucky with the specific setup I chose (approximately Mamool Ja Blusterers, since they're still a pretty typical outside-Abyssea target) 
Necro Bump Detected!
[90 days between previous and next post]Thanks Ninian, this should be stickied.
Also, it's a terrible pain to calc STP for a DW job compared to a two handed weap... Leviathan.Niniann said: You DO NOT want to wear Dual Wield+ (charis necklace, auric dagger, suppanomimi, mirke wardecors, Nusku's sash, charis casaque +1, charis casaque +2) gear while receiving Haste and Victory + Advancing March. It's fine for when you're receiving just Haste, or just Marches though. If you have less than 24% in gear Haste, you have your choice of one 5% Dual Wield item to TP in, but that's it. Anything more and it's a hindrance to your TP-gain. With March+4 x2 and Haste, you only need to wear 20% gear Haste (no Dual Wield). With March+3 x2 and Haste, you only need to wear 23% gear Haste (no Dual Wield). Also, Charis Feather is pretty neat, grants a 5% increase to your Critical Hit damage. You should pick one up, it's pretty amazing. Best TP set without Haste+March: Best TP set with Haste+March(ignore weapons): Nope, the first set is still best for haste+marches. Assuming Haste samba is capped and you aren't gimp (Cause if you're rocking the 26% haste gear set you should have capped merits by now) and your bard doesnt suck, then overall -delay should be: Advancing march: 92/1024 haste Victory march: 128/1024 haste Spell: 150/1024 Gear: 256/1024 Haste Samba:102/1024 Total: 728/1024 = 71% haste That means you are NOT at the cap yet. Amount of delay remaining: 29%, which means you need enough Dual wield to account for -9% delay. 9/29 = 31% DW required to hit the absolute god tier cap of -delay. Dancer has a total of 30% DW from natural traits meaning you need 1% more to hit god tier cap. WITH ADVANCING MARCH. However if you take advancing march out you end up with: Victory march: 128/1024 haste Spell: 150/1024 Gear: 256/1024 Haste Samba:102/1024 Total: 636/1024 = 62.1% haste Meaning you have 37.9% delay left, and need enough DW to account for -17.9% of you're total. Thus, 17.9/37.9 = 48% DW needed to hit ultimate cap. Which means you need 18% DW in gear to hit cap, aka, the first gear set you posted will put you EXACTLY at the ultimate cap for -delay, when only getting victory march and not advancing march, and using haste samba. Thus, if you are only getting v march, or are not using haste samba, then the first gear set is optimal. So what would you get instead of advancing march? Minuet V of course. Thats a whopping +81 attack if the bard doesnt have Ghorn. Which boils down to this then. If the bard double marches you, you swap out: Casque+2 -> Lokis (-1Dex, -12 Chr, Subtle blow-10, stp+7, +11 Agi, crit dmg+3%) Necklace -> Collar (acc/att+8) and Suppa -> Pendant (Agi-2, att+7) For a total of: -1 Dex, -12 Chr, Agi+9, Stp+7, acc+8, atT+15, -10 Subtle Blow, and crit dmg+3%) Versus +81 attack from minuet. I'm pretty darn sure 81 attack is worth substantially more than 7 stp, 15 att, and crit dmg+3%. Since the other stats aren't that important. As for the loss of tp when converting 9% haste to the 18% DW, let's find out exactly how much we lose (I don't know at this point so it will be interesting to see, lets calc) Assuming standard high end weapons, phurba, kila+2, Twilight, whatever, we're going with 190 delayx2 daggers. dps will be the same since both setups are -80% delay. So to calculate.tl;dr -1 Dex, -12 Chr, Agi+9, Stp+7, acc+8, atT+15, -10 Subtle Blow, and crit dmg+3% You lose 6.5% tp/min, 7 store tp, 8 acc, 15 att, and 3% crit dmg, but gain 10 subtle blow and 81 attack by using DW gear and march+minuet, as opposed to the DD gear brought forth by OP and double marches. In closing: DW gear all the way. Quetzalcoatl.Urat said: Leviathan.Niniann said: You DO NOT want to wear Dual Wield+ (charis necklace, auric dagger, suppanomimi, mirke wardecors, Nusku's sash, charis casaque +1, charis casaque +2) gear while receiving Haste and Victory + Advancing March. It's fine for when you're receiving just Haste, or just Marches though. If you have less than 24% in gear Haste, you have your choice of one 5% Dual Wield item to TP in, but that's it. Anything more and it's a hindrance to your TP-gain. With March+4 x2 and Haste, you only need to wear 20% gear Haste (no Dual Wield). With March+3 x2 and Haste, you only need to wear 23% gear Haste (no Dual Wield). Also, Charis Feather is pretty neat, grants a 5% increase to your Critical Hit damage. You should pick one up, it's pretty amazing. Best TP set without Haste+March: Best TP set with Haste+March(ignore weapons): Nope, the first set is still best for haste+marches. Assuming Haste samba is capped and you aren't gimp (Cause if you're rocking the 26% haste gear set you should have capped merits by now) and your bard doesnt suck, then overall -delay should be: Advancing march: 92/1024 haste Victory march: 128/1024 haste Spell: 150/1024 Gear: 256/1024 Haste Samba:102/1024 Total: 728/1024 = 71% haste That means you are NOT at the cap yet. Amount of delay remaining: 29%, which means you need enough Dual wield to account for -9% delay. 9/29 = 31% DW required to hit the absolute god tier cap of -delay. Dancer has a total of 30% DW from natural traits meaning you need 1% more to hit god tier cap. WITH ADVANCING MARCH. However if you take advancing march out you end up with: Victory march: 128/1024 haste Spell: 150/1024 Gear: 256/1024 Haste Samba:102/1024 Total: 636/1024 = 62.1% haste Meaning you have 37.9% delay left, and need enough DW to account for -17.9% of you're total. Thus, 17.9/37.9 = 48% DW needed to hit ultimate cap. Which means you need 18% DW in gear to hit cap, aka, the first gear set you posted will put you EXACTLY at the ultimate cap for -delay, when only getting victory march and not advancing march, and using haste samba. Thus, if you are only getting v march, or are not using haste samba, then the first gear set is optimal. So what would you get instead of advancing march? Minuet V of course. Thats a whopping +81 attack if the bard doesnt have Ghorn. Which boils down to this then. If the bard double marches you, you swap out: Casque+2 -> Lokis (-1Dex, -12 Chr, Subtle blow-10, stp+7, +11 Agi, crit dmg+3%) Necklace -> Collar (acc/att+8) and Suppa -> Pendant (Agi-2, att+7) For a total of: -1 Dex, -12 Chr, Agi+9, Stp+7, acc+8, atT+15, -10 Subtle Blow, and crit dmg+3%) Versus +81 attack from minuet. I'm pretty darn sure 81 attack is worth substantially more than 7 stp, 15 att, and crit dmg+3%. Since the other stats aren't that important. As for the loss of tp when converting 9% haste to the 18% DW, let's find out exactly how much we lose (I don't know at this point so it will be interesting to see, lets calc) Assuming standard high end weapons, phurba, kila+2, Twilight, whatever, we're going with 190 delayx2 daggers. dps will be the same since both setups are -80% delay. So to calculate.tl;dr -1 Dex, -12 Chr, Agi+9, Stp+7, acc+8, atT+15, -10 Subtle Blow, and crit dmg+3% You lose 6.5% tp/min, 7 store tp, 8 acc, 15 att, and 3% crit dmg, but gain 10 subtle blow and 81 attack by using DW gear and march+minuet, as opposed to the DD gear brought forth by OP and double marches. In closing: DW gear all the way. Feel free to go through the math and find the flaw, it's all right there.
You're March values are gimp.
BRD with +2 Instrument and +1 March from Hands (+3 Total): Advancing: 64/1024 + 3*16/1024 = 112/1024 (10.9375%) Victory: 96/1024 + 3*16/1024 = 144/1024 (14.0625%) BRD with +3 Instrument and +1 March from Hands (+4 Total): Advancing: 64/1024 + 4*16/1024 = 128/1024 (12.5%) Victory: 96/1024 + 4*16/1024 = 160/1024 (15.625%) In addition to that you're missing the Dual Wield trait DNC gets. Not gonna look at the math till tomorrow, but why the hell is the bard picking their songs to optimize the Dnc in the pt?
Gonna go with two 190 delay daggers here. 190+190=380. 380 x .2= 76 delay to reach the cap.
380 x .7= 266 delay naturally. 266 x .29 = 77.14 That's with the haste values you used. Bismarck.Altar said: Not gonna look at the math till tomorrow, but why the hell is the bard picking their songs to optimize the Dnc in the pt?
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Quetzalcoatl.Urat said: Dancer has a total of [/B]30% DW from natural traits[/B] meaning you need 1% more to hit god tier cap. Thus, 17.9/37.9 = 48% DW needed to hit ultimate cap. Which means you need 18% DW in gear to hit cap, aka, the first gear set you posted will put you EXACTLY at the ultimate cap for -delay, when only getting victory march and not advancing march, and using haste samba. Cause apparently there's 48% in DW gear lying around. And the slightly stronger march means you can swap out charis neck for the collar, which is the best upgrade without losing anything. So you lose 3% DW. This will further lower the amount of tp loss from swapping to DW and asking for minuet, lower the att gain from your set, and maybe even increase the tp/swing of the DW set. 190 * 0.55 = 104.5 = 4.3 tp/swing, ok nope you still end up with the same tp/swing still. So meh. So using Casque and suppa you gain 74 attack and 10 subtle blow, but lose 7 store tp and 3% crit dmg. Maaaaaaaayyyyybeeee that 3% crit dmg might tip your set on par with the minuet in abyssea. Maaaaayyyyybbbbeee, but highly doubtful. At that point nothing but a raw parse to find the comparisons imperially would tell us if one is better than the other, and if it is, it'd be by such a margin you couldn't argue either way. Quetzalcoatl.Urat said: Quetzalcoatl.Urat said: Dancer has a total of [/B]30% DW from natural traits[/B] meaning you need 1% more to hit god tier cap. Thus, 17.9/37.9 = 48% DW needed to hit ultimate cap. Which means you need 18% DW in gear to hit cap, aka, the first gear set you posted will put you EXACTLY at the ultimate cap for -delay, when only getting victory march and not advancing march, and using haste samba. Cause apparently there's 48% in DW gear lying around. And the slightly stronger march means you can swap out charis neck for the collar, which is the best upgrade without losing anything. So you lose 3% DW. This will further lower the amount of tp loss from swapping to DW and asking for minuet, lower the att gain from your set, and maybe even increase the tp/swing of the DW set. 190 * 0.55 = 104.5 = 4.3 tp/swing, ok nope you still end up with the same tp/swing still. So meh. So using Casque and suppa you gain 74 attack and 10 subtle blow, but lose 7 store tp and 3% crit dmg. Maaaaaaaayyyyybeeee that 3% crit dmg might tip your set on par with the minuet in abyssea. Maaaaayyyyybbbbeee, but highly doubtful. At that point nothing but a raw parse to find the comparisons imperially would tell us if one is better than the other, and if it is, it'd be by such a margin you couldn't argue either way. x2 march, I did all your math with two simple *** equations.
A person who gets +74 attack, 10 subtle blow, in trade for 7 store tp and 3% crit dmg by getting 1 march.
A non gimp dancer who is using saber dance does. Because otherwise you have more haste than you need. If you're bard can't handle that then he's *** lazy, I manage up to 3 different song rotations in my parties at once while landing elegies. People have just gotten to soft nowadays to handle doing something more complicated than double march -> double ballad -> afk for 3 mins. |
's which dramatically increase the droprate of the designated 'rare' item. Between the hours of 22-6 in game time a MNK+WHM with h2h/club/staff skilled/WSNMs done can proc 
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