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Return of MNK/THF????
 Fairy.Vytiss
Serveur: Fairy
Game: FFXI
Posts: 115
By Fairy.Vytiss 2009-10-19 16:55:08
Kungfuhustle said: Vytiss said: Vegetto said: Vytiss said: idk why anyone thinks there's any option other than Meteor Cesti for Dragon Kick build...
Because if your acc isn't capped in your TP build, you'll gain more TP and WS more times w/ something like hades or waghs and do more damage overall than having 3 str 4 vit. Also, in your DK build. Forager > melee cape 90% of the time Gorget >>>>>> torque Flame ring > topaz ring (and i saw you have one from your Sam set, so why would you use topaz over it?). As far as 50% str 50% vit goes, 1 str = 1 vit for mod, but since str also counts towards fstr and gives attack as well. 1 str > 1 vit on Dragon kick. I think i didn't have a gorget when I made that set, i do now tho'... I swapped out 8STR for 9VIT, which can be 10VIT if i wasn't being cheap on the ring. guess i could test it out a bit, but when you're doing SATA DK does the extra attack even help much? was just relying on capping out my mods but going with your line of reasoning... should i just keep Black Belt on for WS too? 7STR vs. 5STR 5VIT? regardless, DK shouldn't really be used for anything but in/out WS'ing common to HNM fights... since TPing with Footwork is slow, and recast on Footwork is even slower. so you're still TPing to 300, then boosting 12, then SATA DK and run away... Meteor Cesti ftw. anything otherwise, should just be using Asuran Fists or Howling Fist... SA Howling Fist if you're really dying to MNK/THF in exp. Footwork is a "constant" JA, just like Counterstance.
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Game: FFXI
Posts: 3615
By Fairy.Vegetto 2009-10-19 16:55:44
Probably would be best tbh, you can do as much dmg as you want going for your highest, but still doesn't amount to anything when yoru total damage is miles behind the rest.
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Game: FFXI
Posts: 3615
By Fairy.Vegetto 2009-10-19 16:57:19
Vytiss said: but for the HNM MNK that wants to SATA DK... is where i'm posing my argument.
don't need +attack when you're already boosting to 999attk.
STR + VIT balance ftw. You don't need a balance. They do the EXACT same thing. Let's say you have 1 str 100 vit Adding 1 str at this point does the EXACT same thing as adding 1 vit at this point, as far as WS mod goes. (ignoring fstr attack ect). If you have 100 str and 1 vit. Adding 1 str does the exact same thing as 1 vit. That being said, str also adds fstr. 1 str > 1 vit every time, there is 0 need for balance.
Fairy.Vytiss
Serveur: Fairy
Game: FFXI
Posts: 115
By Fairy.Vytiss 2009-10-19 17:00:14
hawt, but then i'm still correct in swapping 8STR for 10VIT?
granted that... i'm boosting to 12, i get what you're saying about the +fstr +attk etc. but when i boost full does it matter when i'm already 999atk?
i think i hit 999attk anyways after 7boosts... do the extra 5boosts count towards anything really?
i'll stick with +STR>+VIT for spamming DK WSs, but doubtful i'll ever use it that way.
Serveur: Siren
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Posts: 10387
By Siren.Enternius 2009-10-19 17:01:58
Vytiss said: does it matter when i'm already 999atk? It does matter. 999 is not a hard cap. It can still go higher, that's just the highest that's visually displayed. Same with DEF.
Fairy.Vytiss
Serveur: Fairy
Game: FFXI
Posts: 115
By Fairy.Vytiss 2009-10-19 17:03:50
o? well then that's a horse of a different color.
Serveur: Fairy
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3615
By Fairy.Vegetto 2009-10-19 17:04:42
Vytiss said: hawt, but then i'm still correct in swapping 8STR for 10VIT?
granted that... i'm boosting to 12, i get what you're saying about the +fstr +attk etc. but when i boost full does it matter when i'm already 999atk?
i'll stick with +STR>+VIT for spamming DK WSs, but doubtful i'll ever use it that way. "hawt, but then i'm still correct in swapping 8STR for 10VIT?" No, you're not understanding. Even if you are capped on FSTR AND Attack, 1 str does the exact same thing as 1 vit, but when you're not capped, STR does even more. When your fstr and attack are not capped 10 str > 10 vit, when your fstr and attack are capped, 10 str = 10 vit. At no point ever does 1 vit > 1 str, it can only = 1 str, provided you are capped in attack and fstr.
Fairy.Vytiss
Serveur: Fairy
Game: FFXI
Posts: 115
By Fairy.Vytiss 2009-10-19 17:05:06
tweaking my item set then... though I'm still firm on Meteor Cesti > all for DK
i'll get back to ya after my next Dark Ixion, lol.
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Game: FFXI
Posts: 3615
By Fairy.Vegetto 2009-10-19 17:10:52
Well w/ SA the first hit is guaranteed, but the second hit is not. If your acc for the second hit is uncapped, (which is should be because DK builds have like 0 acc) then 7 acc on hades sainti would beat Meteor's average. Meteor would have a higher max, but let's say you do 5 Ixions w/ hades and 5 w/ meteor cesti, if your acc on the 2nd hit is uncapped, you'll do more total damage w/ hades most likely.
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Posts: 3615
By Fairy.Vegetto 2009-10-19 17:16:50
And if we're going for pure damage, these are the top dragon kick h2h  Just sip a juice to make sure you have mp before delivering a DK. Of course, you need MP merits to do it, but optimally, they beat meteor cesti. Edit: Err nvm, no MP merits needed, provided you're using osode.
Fairy.Vytiss
Serveur: Fairy
Game: FFXI
Posts: 115
By Fairy.Vytiss 2009-10-20 07:46:45
i do like those...
don't they drain mp as you wear em?
i remember swinging those back in the KRT dayz.
you just want me to change because u don't like me doing higher Chakra than u!
Serveur: Fairy
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Posts: 3615
By Fairy.Vegetto 2009-10-20 10:36:58
They drain MP while engaged don't when not engaged. As for Chakra, you'd have to have a hell of a build to beat mine, even w/ your race advantage. Aside from augmented items, and swapping out weapon and losing TP, my chakra build can no longer improve.
Caitsith.Heimdall
Serveur: Caitsith
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1318
By Caitsith.Heimdall 2009-10-20 11:33:10
u could Vegetto said: Well w/ SA the first hit is guaranteed, but the second hit is not. If your acc for the second hit is uncapped, (which is should be because DK builds have like 0 acc) then 7 acc on hades sainti would beat Meteor's average. Meteor would have a higher max, but let's say you do 5 Ixions w/ hades and 5 w/ meteor cesti, if your acc on the 2nd hit is uncapped, you'll do more total damage w/ hades most likely. u could just try for oberon's knuckles, in theory u could get +10 acc and str/vit on them maybe even store tp to help footwork gain
Fairy.Vytiss
Serveur: Fairy
Game: FFXI
Posts: 115
By Fairy.Vytiss 2009-10-21 08:41:16
Yeah, i remembered why i hated those Rune's... "RDM's were like, WTF?!? u want Refresh?!?" in exp parties.
Latent makes no difference when you have no MP.
i think it was like 10 MP/tic too.
Serveur: Siren
Game: FFXI
Posts: 10387
By Siren.Enternius 2009-10-21 08:43:21
It's 4 MP per tic.
That being said, honestly I can't see them being worth using in parties. High delay, low DMG, and STR alone isn't enough to counteract that.
Even so, great Footwork H2H.
Serveur: Fairy
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3615
By Fairy.Vegetto 2009-10-21 08:47:22
Yea, only good for footwork. Absolute trash anywhere else.
Serveur: Garuda
Game: FFXI
Posts: 464
By Garuda.Feifongwong 2009-10-21 19:52:50
I was wondering about this earlier, hoping Vegetto will answer as he has a better grip on the math than me.
What about swapping in Temple Cyclas+1 for a Footwork Dragon Kick? The STR+6 VIT+6 Accuracy+5 with the 50% STR and VIT modifiers on Dragon Kick, would potentially be very good. However using Temple Cyclas+1 would mean giving up 5DEX, 5ACC, 10ATK from my Mirke (augmented ACC+10 ATK+10).
Any thoughts on this?
Serveur: Siren
Game: FFXI
Posts: 10387
By Siren.Enternius 2009-10-21 19:56:03
I'd have to say even Osode would beat Temple Cyclas +1.
Then again, I haven't been MNK long.
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Game: FFXI
Posts: 3615
By Fairy.Vegetto 2009-10-21 19:59:20
I'd stick w/ mirke @ uncapped acc. I think landing the 2nd hit is more important than +2-3 DMG on both. Should be close either way and don't see where either of them would be going wrong. I could do the math if this isn't a good enough answer, just don't feel like doing it at this very second.
Serveur: Fairy
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3615
By Fairy.Vegetto 2009-10-21 19:59:40
Enternius said: I'd have to say even Osode would beat Temple Cyclas +1.
Then again, I haven't been MNK long. I'm pretty sure it's safe to assume he doesn't have one.
Serveur: Siren
Game: FFXI
Posts: 10387
By Siren.Enternius 2009-10-21 20:05:53
I didn't see that written anywhere.
Honestly if you don't have Osode, you should really get one. It's amazing for everything you do on MNK.
Or SAM, or NIN or WAR or BST or RNG >.>
Serveur: Fairy
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3615
By Fairy.Vegetto 2009-10-21 20:07:41
Enternius said: I didn't see that written anywhere.
Honestly if you don't have Osode, you should really get one. It's amazing for everything you do on MNK.
Or SAM, or NIN or WAR or BST or RNG >.> This is why I said "It's safe to assume" I didn't say it was written. Here is why. There is 0 reason to ask about Tpl. Cyclas+1 if you have osode. 10 str 10 vit vs 6 str 6 vit. Why would that even be an option? They both have the same amount of acc as well, so that cancels out. As for amazing for everything you do on mnk, I only use it for howling fist, dragon kick, and ascetic's fury, which accounts for 5% of my total WS, where as the other 95%, I use Asuran. Well ballista too, but that's dead on Fairy
Serveur: Garuda
Game: FFXI
Posts: 464
By Garuda.Feifongwong 2009-10-21 20:11:50
Thanks for the answers both of you. No I don't have an Osode yet, only drop left in sky that I want lol
Currently I do use my Mirke for Dragon Kick, but I was thinking about the modifiers so I started to wonder about the AF+1.
Serveur: Siren
Game: FFXI
Posts: 10387
By Siren.Enternius 2009-10-21 20:13:50
Vegetto said: As for amazing for everything you do on mnk, I only use it for howling fist, dragon kick, and ascetic's fury, which accounts for 5% of my total WS, where as the other 95%, I use Asuran. And Chi Blast, and solo, no?
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Game: FFXI
Posts: 3615
By Fairy.Vegetto 2009-10-21 20:16:08
SH+1 will cover solo and chi blast is rarely ever done these days. Osode is nice, but I'd buy other things that would improve my damage more w/ the same money (for exmaple I'd buy hq acc rings or save towards a cuch mantle ect) before buying an osode.
It is nice to have at the times you use it, but it is not anywhere close to a crucial piece at pretty much any time.
The only times I can recall Chi blasting in the past year+ is in ballista at the start of the match (boosting in the pre-match time) and during my 22 solos of Jailer of fortitude before he finally put out my torque
Serveur: Siren
Game: FFXI
Posts: 10387
By Siren.Enternius 2009-10-21 20:18:07
I'm not saying Osode is 100% essential for everything you do, no matter what it is. I'm just saying that like from my perspective, or from anyone's who has multiple jobs, Osode is one of those pieces you never want to lose.
Serveur: Fairy
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3615
By Fairy.Vegetto 2009-10-21 20:21:20
Well looking at his jobs, I'll go back and say it was still a valid assumption to make, as the only two jobs he has that can even equip it are nin and mnk and while I'm no nin expert, it would be a piece that I wouldn't be in much of a hurry to get for either of those jobs.
Fairy.Vytiss
Serveur: Fairy
Game: FFXI
Posts: 115
By Fairy.Vytiss 2009-10-22 10:02:56
wa wa what?!? osode ftw for MNK!
Chi Blast isn't completely dead.
Penance + 1500dmg ftw! start cyclin' those MNKs again!
Serveur: Fairy
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3615
By Fairy.Vegetto 2009-10-22 10:22:45
It's about 95% dead, aside from solo kite/chi and ballista, and the 1% of shells that actually use a mnk rotation because the ally is full. If the ally isn't full, then you'd just be better off on sam, unless you're saying that sam can't deal 1.5k dmg in 3 minutes >.>
As for penance, yes I use that everywhere, but you don't need to worry about chi's dmg for that and I use it for the debuff rather than the damage.
Osode isn't ***, it isn't bad, it's actually good, but there are other upgrades that are better for a mnk than osode, and its one of the last things that should go on a mnk's shopping list that doesn't have all they need
Fairy.Raikan
Serveur: Fairy
Game: FFXI
Posts: 284
By Fairy.Raikan 2009-10-22 11:06:09
This thread is still going? x.x;
Ok, so i recently did some tests with Martial Knuckles. I was in Altepa killing scorpions out of boredom, figured i would mess around with Footwork for fun.
While doing this i noticed Dragon Kick doing alot more damage, of course. But then i got to thinking about this weapon, which would obviously boost Dragon Kick damage, as it varies by TP. So i decided to warp back and head to the AH and grab a pair of these knucks. I went back and and continued killing scorpions but now with these knucks on. There was a pretty decent difference in Dragon Kick Damage. About an average of 300 damage more than any other weapon at 100% TP to "Too Weak" scorpions...
I have not tried this in a party or to VT/IT mobs but will soon, ya never know, this maybe could do some nice damage. Then just add a Sneak Attack and this could be BIG... Could this possibly bring back the long gone MNK/THF??? Haha just giving people something to think about. :):)
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