|
Hundred Knives
By Flionheart 2010-09-19 14:28:31
http://www.ffxiah.com/forum/topic/13872/lower-tp-return-85-footwork/2/#850191
Kine did the math, and poise shoes footwork still gets beaten out. h2h is still top.
[+]
Phoenix.Fredjan
Serveur: Phoenix
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2326
By Phoenix.Fredjan 2010-09-19 14:33:02
Spharai 85 + Asuran Fists > OA2-3 Ursine Claws + Footwork + TK.
Spharai 85 are just..... broken.... DMG+40 when Fire Taipangs +1 are only +26, and, on top of that, ATK +30.
Serveur: Ifrit
Game: FFXI
Posts: 5779
By Ifrit.Eikechi 2010-09-19 14:34:37
full relics are still tops for a reason..and nobody ever said, even at the height of footwork build, they beat the 80 spharai.. they were said to be close to on par....
so obviously spharai win....
By yunalaysca 2010-09-19 16:49:45
Ifrit.Eikechi said: Asura.Tristean said: I was saying dnc has access to which would boost the numbers I posted to be higher.
38 dmg fusetto+1 < 95 dmg Keitonotachi+1 (both have WS dmg+10%)
the sheer massive difference in base weapon dmg is what really makes sam hit that much harder imho, honestly....
don't get me wrong...I'm not trying to mindlessly bash dnc... i friggin love dncs..but they are certainly not top tier DD like samurai are did you even read the first page? the attack rate dnc can pull and the job abilities it has makes one hell of a tp building machine.
5 hit build for ws, 20 tp per hit, 1 hit per 3 seconds - sam
multiple ways to build tp, 5 tp per hit, 3 hits every 1 second - dnc
do the math, dnc can ws ALOT more than sam can, which is why it can out parse other DD's.
By yunalaysca 2010-09-19 16:50:47
oops quoted the wrong post but you get my point
Serveur: Ifrit
Game: FFXI
Posts: 5779
By Ifrit.Eikechi 2010-09-19 16:52:19
yunalaysca said: did you even read the first page? the attack rate dnc can pull and the job abilities it has makes one hell of a tp building machine.
5 hit build for ws, 20 tp per hit, 1 hit per 3 seconds - sam
multiple ways to build tp, 5 tp per hit, 3 hits every 1 second - dnc
do the math, dnc can ws ALOT more than sam can, which is why it can out parse other DD's.
I'm sorry did YOU read any of my posts...why is dnc getting OaT in your formula, but Sam's OaT high dmg GK not even considered? .....ya.... cuz the OaT GK can be 5 hit built as well..
and if you consider sam at cap + hasso its not 3s per swing with sam, its more like 2s
[+]
By yunalaysca 2010-09-19 16:59:28
Ifrit.Eikechi said: Is nobody accounting for (in this dnc vs sam argument) the fact that sam gets the same haste as dnc (come on..if the dnc is using haste samba, the sam gets it as well) BEFORE hasso? I'm pretty sure total haste is 80% or some crap from all sources, so that would fit sam right at the very top tier of haste. I know the delay is a lot different from GK to dagger, but when I was tooling around on sam, with a buddy, I used timestamp to clock my attack speed. Hasso + haste + march x2 + my lulz (atm) 18% gear haste was 2~3s per swing on sam/war with a 95 dmg GK (what I'm ToMing now) with WS dmg+10%...
Thats not even @gear haste cap... Lets not even get into the fact that Sam can use a high dmg OaT GK (or even lulz soboro), or the massive STR difference in gear sets while maintaining haste... this
and no im not including OAT daggers, i generally dont even care for dnc using OAT.
By yunalaysca 2010-09-19 17:01:11
and lets say sam does hit one every 2s, thats 40tp, where dnc builds 45 tp in 2 seconds
Serveur: Ifrit
Game: FFXI
Posts: 5779
By Ifrit.Eikechi 2010-09-19 17:04:12
lol I'm sorry but 45 tp in 2s? thats using OaT at max proc...lets say you swing 2x per round, so thats what... 11 tp per round if you hit twice.. 16 if you hit 3 times lets say...so you mean to tell me you're gonna get off nearly 3 attack rounds in 2s? lol
[+]
By yunalaysca 2010-09-19 17:07:21
yes that's precisely why i made the topic to begin with. dnc attacks bloody fast. also if oat procs, double attack doesn't, the combination of the 2 brings the total chance of a 2nd swing roughly 20% higher than the base double attack anyways.
Serveur: Ifrit
Game: FFXI
Posts: 5779
By Ifrit.Eikechi 2010-09-19 17:11:45
yunalaysca said: yes that's precisely why i made the topic to begin with. dnc attacks bloody fast.
"bloody fast" sounds awful accurate as to an actual attack rate lol... and you do realize the more DW you stack, your tp build goes down because its simple delay reduc, ya? its like Martial Arts+ in that right
[+]
By yunalaysca 2010-09-19 17:15:30
Ifrit.Eikechi said: yunalaysca said: yes that's precisely why i made the topic to begin with. dnc attacks bloody fast.
"bloody fast" sounds awful accurate as to an actual attack rate lol... and you do realize the more DW you stack, your tp build goes down because its simple delay reduc, ya? its like Martial Arts+ in that right which gives me 5 tp, while you said dnc gets 6, i already took that into consideration.
Serveur: Ifrit
Game: FFXI
Posts: 5779
By Ifrit.Eikechi 2010-09-19 17:16:42
i dont know if its actually 6, was simply giving the high end as an example of how I think 2.5 attack arounds in 2s is literally impossible because you said 45 tp in 2s...
By yunalaysca 2010-09-19 17:25:54
Ifrit.Eikechi said: i dont know if its actually 6, was simply giving the high end as an example of how I think 2.5 attack arounds in 2s is literally impossible because you said 45 tp in 2s... this is coming from the person that thinks dnc should be using joytoy. while you say you love dnc, you simply just dont give it the credit it deserves.
Carbuncle.Virtuosus
Serveur: Carbuncle
Game: FFXI
Posts: 683
By Carbuncle.Virtuosus 2010-09-19 17:53:52
Are we seriously debating SAM vs DNC in terms of damage? Because a top geared DNC can never even touch an equally geared SAM.
Serveur: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
Posts: 201
By Leviathan.Gotterdammerung 2010-09-19 17:57:46
im shure somewhere in the world there is a perfect geared sam and a perfect geared dancer. Would save a lot of agrument if these two just got together and ran a parser. then posted the end result. Afterall the internet is not a place you just dump things on.
Siren.Blaire
Serveur: Siren
Game: FFXI
Posts: 163
By Siren.Blaire 2010-09-19 18:05:07
Ifrit.Eikechi said: Is nobody accounting for (in this dnc vs sam argument) the fact that sam gets the same haste as dnc (come on..if the dnc is using haste samba, the sam gets it as well) BEFORE hasso? I'm pretty sure total haste is 80% or some crap from all sources, so that would fit sam right at the very top tier of haste. I know the delay is a lot different from GK to dagger, but when I was tooling around on sam, with a buddy, I used timestamp to clock my attack speed. Hasso + haste + march x2 + my lulz (atm) 18% gear haste was 2~3s per swing on sam/war with a 95 dmg GK (what I'm ToMing now) with WS dmg+10%...
Thats not even @gear haste cap... Lets not even get into the fact that Sam can use a high dmg OaT GK (or even lulz soboro), or the massive STR difference in gear sets while maintaining haste...
10% haste from hasso would definitely raise sam up to 80% total if they have haste samba too...
However, you fail to understand that dnc can easily get... 45% dual wield. I'd have to do the math to be absolutely certain (in fact i will below) but I'm 99.9% sure -45% delay before haste is better than an additional 10% haste.
450 delay GK:
450 x 0.2 = 90 delay
We've established DNC has 67.98 delay when hasted properly.
So yea, they still hit quite faster. It's like 25% faster.
Sam hits once every 1.5 seconds while dance hits an average of 3.3 times every 1.133 seconds WITHOUT an OAT weapon while using saber dance.
w/o an OAT weapon, dnc will hit 175 times in a minute.
w/o an OAT weapon, sam will hit 40 times in a minute.
If sam gains 20 tp per hit, thats 800 tp.
If dnc gains 5 tp per hit, thats 875 tp.
They both can generate TP with job abilities also. Dnc can just do it much faster.
Now lets say the sam manages to hit for 200 damage each swing, thats 40 x 200 = 8000 damage
If the dnc hits for 50 per swing average they will have 175 x 50 = 8750 damage, and its VERY easy for a dnc to hit 60+ per swing on a mob weak to piercing. A good one will average over 70 a hit nowdays. (60 avg = 10,500 damage, 70 avg = 12,250)
Idk if you've seen a good dnc/war ws lately, but they definitely can keep up with a sam in WS numbers.
[+]
Quetzalcoatl.Sectumsempra
Serveur: Quetzalcoatl
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3987
By Quetzalcoatl.Sectumsempra 2010-09-19 18:11:15
Theoretical numbers are theoretical.
[+]
By Kailana 2010-09-19 18:11:54
Leviathan.Gotterdammerung said: im shure somewhere in the world there is a perfect geared sam and a perfect geared dancer. Would save a lot of agrument if these two just got together and ran a parser. then posted the end result. Afterall the internet is not a place you just dump things on.
It'd get sidetracked when in the heat of competition they break out into a sweaty passionate lovefest.
And that's how SAM/DNC was born.
Siren.Blaire
Serveur: Siren
Game: FFXI
Posts: 163
By Siren.Blaire 2010-09-19 18:12:18
Quetzalcoatl.Sectumsempra said: Theoretical numbers are theoretical.
What is theoretical about any of that? lol
It's all solid math. The only thing you could consider slightly theoretical is the damage averages. In that case, sam won't average 200 a swing. I was being VERY generous there, it'd likely be 160'ish.
Serveur: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
Posts: 201
By Leviathan.Gotterdammerung 2010-09-19 18:15:45
People wont stop arguing for sam no matter wat numbers u throw at them until u show em a solid parse.
I had same problem with bst+pet arguement.
Even tho i was parsing #1 in my abyssea parties and another bst friend was parsing #1 in his einherjar and limbus.
No one is gonna believe u until u post the parse and even then there gonna say things like "those guys u were partying with must be trash"
But theres an upside. Its actually a bad thing if u definatively prove dnc is the newkings of DD. All it will do is flood ur class with bandwagoneer's wich in turn raises the prices of your gear.
So be glad that people are stubborn and just have fun kickin azz with ur new power.
[+]
Quetzalcoatl.Sectumsempra
Serveur: Quetzalcoatl
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3987
By Quetzalcoatl.Sectumsempra 2010-09-19 18:17:18
Siren.Blaire said: Quetzalcoatl.Sectumsempra said: Theoretical numbers are theoretical.
What is theoretical about any of that? lol
It's all solid math. The only thing you could consider slightly theoretical is the damage averages. In that case, sam won't average 200 a swing. I was being VERY generous there, it'd likely be 160'ish.
And DNC won't average 60 DMG/hit.
[+]
Carbuncle.Virtuosus
Serveur: Carbuncle
Game: FFXI
Posts: 683
By Carbuncle.Virtuosus 2010-09-19 18:31:52
Wait, SAMs damage is melee only? And both jobs never stop to use JA/WS?
Carbuncle.Virtuosus
Serveur: Carbuncle
Game: FFXI
Posts: 683
By Carbuncle.Virtuosus 2010-09-19 18:46:43
Leviathan.Gotterdammerung said:
I had same problem with bst+pet arguement.
Even tho i was parsing #1 in my abyssea parties and another bst friend was parsing #1 in his einherjar and limbus.
No one is gonna believe u until u post the parse and even then there gonna say things like "those guys u were partying with must be trash"
As a BST myself, as well as a BLU. So I know what it feels like to be considered a lesser DD. I will say that BST's damage has improved quite well, as well as BLU's. And sure, a properly geared, merited, and skilled BST along with their pet can now do quite respectable damage. In fact, I'm one of the leaders of a BST LS on my server. But, the sad truth is, an equally geared SAM, MNK, or any other respected DD will still eat the other DDs alive if done correctly.
I'm not talking a top geared BST vs a full Pearl SAM. If you're gonna put a top geared DNC vs other well respected jobs and say you came first in the parse, that's picking and choosing your good parses. I better see that SAM in full Usu, or Unkai, or whatever is considered equally geared to what the job in question is wearing.
Full AF3+2 and dusk gloves +1 and bullwhip belt on the DNC? Let's see a SAM in the best possible set too, then. See how well that goes.
[+]
Serveur: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 382
By Asura.Tristean 2010-09-19 20:04:15
Leviathan.Gotterdammerung said: People wont stop arguing for sam no matter wat numbers u throw at them until u show em a solid parse. I had same problem with bst+pet arguement. Even tho i was parsing #1 in my abyssea parties and another bst friend was parsing #1 in his einherjar and limbus. No one is gonna believe u until u post the parse and even then there gonna say things like "those guys u were partying with must be trash" But theres an upside. Its actually a bad thing if u definatively prove dnc is the newkings of DD. All it will do is flood ur class with bandwagoneer's wich in turn raises the prices of your gear. So be glad that people are stubborn and just have fun kickin azz with ur new power.
DNC will never be a bandwagon job because too many guys are too insecure with themselves to even play the job. They have to solo it by themselves for a sub job. I know some people that wont even TOUCH dnc because it's too gay... get over yourself.
Serveur: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 382
By Asura.Tristean 2010-09-19 20:05:03
Oh and bst is beast. I'm just saying. I just dont' know if I could take the time to level it.
Serveur: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
Posts: 201
By Leviathan.Gotterdammerung 2010-09-20 04:38:43
Your text to link here...
@Virtuosus Its not a sad truth its a sad opinion.
Here is a bst with far from perfect gear and eating the wrong food losing to a perfect geared sam and war. Placing 3rd in an einherjar parse. He lost by a surprisingly small amount.
He later went back with some gear improvments (still not the best he can get) and a better food choice and took #1.
I am working on getting that parse posted.
P.S.
Wth does being a bst linkshell leader have to do with it? Does that like give u some sort of "i know everything about bst" scout badge?
Well I am a pet linkshell leader so i guess that means i know everything about bst pup smn and sometimes drg lol
Trumped!
Serveur: Fenrir
Game: FFXI
Posts: 11681
By Fenrir.Nightfyre 2010-09-20 04:43:48
Moral of the story: good players on weaker (DPSwise) jobs > bad players on strong (DPSwise) jobs.
What else is new? Nobody with half a brain cares about competitive parsing, and for good reason.
Also, no mention of your support.
Carbuncle.Virtuosus
Serveur: Carbuncle
Game: FFXI
Posts: 683
By Carbuncle.Virtuosus 2010-09-20 14:20:36
Leviathan.Gotterdammerung said: Wth does being a bst linkshell leader have to do with it? Does that like give u some sort of "i know everything about bst" scout badge?
Well I am a pet linkshell leader so i guess that means i know everything about bst pup smn and sometimes drg lol
Trumped!
Nothing, I just wanted to make sure you knew I wasn't prejudice against BST when I posted that comment about it not being able to outdamage any other respected DD in equal gear.
Fenrir.Nightfyre said: Moral of the story: good players on weaker (DPSwise) jobs > bad players on strong (DPSwise) jobs.
Nail on head.
[+]
Serveur: Ifrit
Game: FFXI
Posts: 5779
By Ifrit.Eikechi 2010-09-20 14:27:07
Siren.Blaire said:
10% haste from hasso would definitely raise sam up to 80% total if they have haste samba too...
However, you fail to understand that dnc can easily get... 45% dual wield. I'd have to do the math to be absolutely certain (in fact i will below) but I'm 99.9% sure -45% delay before haste is better than an additional 10% haste.
450 delay GK:
450 x 0.2 = 90 delay
We've established DNC has 67.98 delay when hasted properly.
So yea, they still hit quite faster. It's like 25% faster.
Sam hits once every 1.5 seconds while dance hits an average of 3.3 times every 1.133 seconds WITHOUT an OAT weapon while using saber dance.
w/o an OAT weapon, dnc will hit 175 times in a minute.
w/o an OAT weapon, sam will hit 40 times in a minute.
If sam gains 20 tp per hit, thats 800 tp.
If dnc gains 5 tp per hit, thats 875 tp.
They both can generate TP with job abilities also. Dnc can just do it much faster.
Now lets say the sam manages to hit for 200 damage each swing, thats 40 x 200 = 8000 damage
If the dnc hits for 50 per swing average they will have 175 x 50 = 8750 damage, and its VERY easy for a dnc to hit 60+ per swing on a mob weak to piercing. A good one will average over 70 a hit nowdays. (60 avg = 10,500 damage, 70 avg = 12,250)
Idk if you've seen a good dnc/war ws lately, but they definitely can keep up with a sam in WS numbers.
This is what I find utterly hilarious about this... 1)-45% DW WILL LOWER TP/swing... that doesn't seem to be in your equation..You'd have to compensate with quite a decent bit of STP on dnc.
2) I absolute LOVE the fact that you said dnc's dmg is 60/swing "on a mob weak to piercing" but gave sam dmg based on no weapon class bonus... wtf is that.....
3) ya...lets compare reverse flourish to meditate....sure lulz you have to stop meleeing to step, and you have to not miss a single step to even compare to meditate's boost to DPS...
edit2: lol I agree with Trist...I hate the homophobes who won't touch dnc cuz its "too gay"...wtfe lol I wear subligars if the stats are good (hi enkidu's for blu til i get AF3+1)
edit3: point 4) "Sam hits once every 1.5 seconds while dance hits an average of 3.3 times every 1.133 seconds WITHOUT an OAT weapon while using saber dance." I love how you basically expect DA to proc so damn often.. I know saber dance is nice, but its not 100% lol
[+]
so i realised this yesterday during abyssea; Dnc has become quite fast, and it with the new armor that came out it isnt hard to cap out your gear haste cap. and not to mention (i havent quite verified this yet) that with the equip like charis necklace and auric dagger, dnc's dual wield surpasses nin's. just out of speculation but do you think with /war and saber dnc that you will deal more dmg if you just ride it and not ws if you have capped out all your haste gear + dual wield?
|
|