Lower TP Return @ 85 (Footwork)?

Noticing I'm only getting 26 tp return on TK (all hits landing), 25 for 2 h2h hits, and 13 for single hit. Can anyone else verify the tp return when just WSing in just Rajas (footwork)? Also, I'm pretty sure I was getting around 28-30 tp every attack round using 14 stp with /nin or /dnc. I only get 27 tp with the same setup.

I'm hearing there may have been another Martial Arts upgrade at 82.

That would explain it. Gogo ninja update.

Not really what I'd consider a ninja update. They don't usually announce new tiers. Like when drg got another trait of acc bonus w/ last level increase. I'd expect to see at least 1 more martial arts as we raise the cap to 99

Done some cross-tests, I can 101% confirm there's a new MA trait at 82.

Previously we all thought Footwork wasn't influenced by MA, it seems it's different. Some people did some tests from level 65, and showed that Footwork starts up at 500 delay, and becomes 480 after Martial Arts VI at level 75.

I'm so sad about this, it killed my 5 hit build on MNK/SAM :(
Now I guess I only have one choice, *** STP gear for better (need to see if there's anything better xD) and accept my current 6 hit build =/ Still, it's sad. And I'm angry with myself because I completed my OA weapon too late, enjoying Footwork monk only for a few days before the patch :(

7 hits while /drg or /war would only take +20 stp right? Trying to adjust now. Damn martial arts mucking me up.

With the old delay (480) you had a base return of 13 TP per hit.
With +29 STP (+15 from /SAM, +5 Rajas, +1 Brutal, +2 Wtath, +6 Usubody) you reached a TP return of 16,7.
That means you needed WS + 4 hit (for a total of "5 hits") to reach 101.2%.
34,4 return from Tornado Kick when all hits connect (33,4 if you miss the third, which is still enough to keep up the build) and 16,7 for the remaining 4 hits.
Of course you had to keep the above mentioned items even during WS to mantain the build.
The good part about this build is that you were achieving that result without equipping any particularly bad item. Only exception possibly being White Tathlum in place of Black, Lucky Coin or Thew Bomblet.

With the new delay we get past level 82 (460) our return with the same setup would be of 15.4 per hit (12tp base return w/o STP).
With a full round like above (3hit WS + 4 hits) we reach 93,4 TP, which is not enough of course.
The new value of STP we need to keep this build is 38 STP, with a more suggested 39 value because 38 grants you EXACTELY 100 TP, and with how the game approximates stuff etc, that might sometimes bring up a 99 result.
So, we're talking really about 10 more STP that you would need in both TP AND WS, that or more than 10 STP during TP, to allow less STP during WS.
Can we reach that without too many sacrifices?
Brisk Mask adds 4.
Hoard Ring adds 4, but at the cost of -4 DEX/STR
Belenos' mantle adds +2 (in addition to att/acc+8, it's quite a nice alternative to Fora/Cerb, altough with Pizza+1 you don't need more acc to reach cap).
Gules Mittens+1 add +3 but offer completely useless stats, compared to what Bkote/Ugote can offer
Almah Torque offers +2 and... that's it.
Chivalrous Chain offers +1 but also some interesting other stats.
Altough honestly losing the ~6,5acc, 7att and +1 damage from Faith Torque sure is something to consider.
Of course you also have Tantra Hose +2 which are bloody awesome and offer +6.

So w/o pants Mask + Hoard + Bele + Almah = 12 STP (total of 41)
With this you could get 16,9 per hit, for a total of 67,6 after 4 hits.
Swap neck for Gorget and ring for a STR one (-6 STP, total of 35) and you get 16,2 return.
A full tornado kick would hence grant you 33,4 TP.
Add that to the previous value and you get 100.8 TP.
BANG!
We're there again.


We could also consider Tantra Hose+2 inside the whole picture. With that everthing changes but I bet you can do the math on your own. Would still need some of the above mentioned gear during TP, to allow swapping during WS.

Tantra legs alone doesn't look too convincing for Footwork build imho. You get some acc and 10 att, but also more haste than needed (you're at cap with Byakko's 5%), you get +7 KA which isn't really that useful during FW, and you lose those 15 dex (crit tier yo!)
The Set effect might be awesome instead, but it's all to be proved. What does it do exactely? Does it work during WS too? (that would force you to keep Empyreal pieces during WS as well)
And then again, to judge the full set we need to see which stats body and hands will have on them.
Using feet+legs+head wouldn't allow you to reach gear haste cap (would need either Aurore Gloves or Tiercel Necklace).
And of course with those 3 pieces you wouldn't be able to keep the 5-hit build as well.
Would the awesome stats and the set bonus compensate for this loss?
I bet it would, but then again we need to test ;)

Shouldn't be an issue with the new AF3 though right? Dont two of the pieces have store tp? I know the legs do anyway.

Aside from full af3, footwork is dead. Poise shoes are dead, etc.

Standard punching now beats it.

Also, there are only 3 pieces of af3 at the moment, with plans of 2 more on the way. The set augment for kick attacks may very well be for all 5 pieces, including the two that haven't been released yet.

So even w/ 3/3 currently, still a chance that footwork won't be brought back up until at least next update.

@Aurilius

As I said above, only legs have +6 STP.
It's unknown what the "augment kick attacks" set bonus does. Is it +damage? Doubt that, they would have wrote "Increases Kick attack attacks" like they did on other feet equipment that give +DMG.
Is it a straight +attack bonus? As far as we know it could be a +STP for kicks :D
But leaving aside this mystery, only legs have STP and it's just +6. You would still need more because you're unlikely to WS in Tantra+2 instead of Hachiryu/Usukane (doing that would lower your WS damage).
Also Tantra+2 with the current setup options give excess haste (1% above cap) and +7 kick attacks has a limited value because the real added amount of KA is much less than 7%, when you're using OA2-3 weapon. You also lose 15 DEX from Bhaidate. Getting close to DEX tiers for crit rate became kinda likely with FW setups, so those 15 DEX were kinda nice if you ask me.


All of this to comment the use of the single piece Tantra Hose+2, and my opinion is "meh".

Full set (or even just the 3 currently available pieces) is a totally different story, as the set bonus (and the base +damage on feet) could make this option freaking AWESOME, despite losing the 26% haste cap and the 5hit build :)

Also, as for Hose+2 being meh, definitely not. That thing breaks full usu alone w/o either of the other 2 pieces (though by even more w/ the head) on it's own, where as the head and feet can't break usu on their own.

Hey hey hey, let's not be too hasty now, shall we?
My personal opinion is that @80 (previous patch) FW offered a huge difference not only compared to punching, but also compared to other jobs.
You were getting base H2H damage +18 +35, all of that at a very fast speed rate (thanks to the OA2-3) with very damaging hits and a very nice WS that you could build to in a 5-hit build. All of this with the addition of meditate/sekkanoki, and you hardly had the time to WS once that your TP was at 100 again.

This difference thinned up with the recent patch for one single reason. Every weapon got a +DMG trial update, or new weapons with higher dmg have been released for that category.
Poise Shoes instead are still the same +35 damage (we only got +3 from the additional +30 h2h skill)
This thinned up the difference, and MNK FW is not as completely *** overpowered as it was on the previous patch, but this doesn't make it completely useless, does it?

Normal punching is better? About which weapon are you talking about exactely? Kinda seems a very strong sentence that you wrote there.
Or maybe is there some bug, or something SE ninjaed that I don't know about? You talked about "broken Poise shoes". What exactely did you mean?


I'll wait for more tests, but I was assuming (and everybody else was as well?) that these set bonuses are scaled, like the campaign ones? Would be kinda lame if you needed full set to get the bonus, but then again it's SE we're talking about so who am I kidding? :D

Mine was a very specific statement concerning the FW setup I posted in another thread, wasn't a general statement about the leg piece in itself, which is of course awesome :)
In the setup I'm talking about, swapping from Bhaidate to Tantra+2 is "meh", imho. But I was talking only about that situation ^^

It's not about being hasty, the math has already been done if you head over to allah forums. As for h2h, tapian fangs are the most reasonable option, but at this point, destroyers are BARELY behind footwork, where as footwork had at least 5% increase above the greatest non relic option before the update. Now, they're struggling to keep up.

But basically, anything better than destroyers (hell even the eva+ tapian fangs+1) will beat poise shoes footwork at this point.

The only H2H option I have atm (aside from Destr of course) are Mantis, the +23 damage (is it 23? step behind Vere).
Aiming for Verethragna very very slowly, hoping Chloris will be doable even by noobs like me when I'm like level 90 or such.
Still, 50 of them are really a lot :( And tbh Vere's not even that great statswise compared to relics, but I guess it's also much easier to get.

Ok! Off topic over, sorry everyone.
Guess I'll try to go dig that thread on Alla Tiger. You're as informative and useful as ever :) :) :)

So I just wasted two weeks of my time to finish a trial weapon that is no longer useful?

*** this game.

Vereth will take a long time to get, especially the lv 85 version they're worse than Chloris.

You may as well do a pair of tapian fangs (str path or weakens defense path), so you have something that doesn't ***up the place until then. And I'd get started while JP are still on the bandwagon, cause they squad up 10+ deep and do work. Wiped out 150 beasts/200 in 1 fireday for my cats claw trial

How do the high damage h2h measure up? Not the empyrean, but the one below it that uses coins from Walk of Echoes.

may be w/ af3 once we know the extent of the fullset, but aside from that, you're correct.

Yes he got there before me but i was gonna advise you start asap to jump on the jp bandwagon they dont mess around they get it done fast and they bring mages too dispel is helpful for wamoura.

I don't believe those ones have been mathed out. What's the stats though? I can give a eyeball figure

Jesus christ, My MNK gear was awful before, now it feels like I'll never be able to keep up if I get back into XI :(

28 dmg 55 delay for the +1

Also has the victory smite WS.

Every other monk "wasted" their time too then but its not wasted as such u get a few skill ups, its a bit of a laugh, get some exp not really any different than old gear from endgame going down the drain from newer better stuff and time wasted there. I just finished ursine few days ago was slow doing them cos of staff trials which I knew were bound to remain safe vs ursine.

Any monk who understands monk could of predicted theres very few ways to go when it comes to ursine and how to improve them. So I didnt even buy poise shoes just did it all in dunes. Only way I could seem them improving ursine at the time which I talked about with tiger about 3 weeks ago now was to either lower delay add another hit or add "kick dmg+" or release a higher dmg boot.

I already have 30 coins of advancement and 20 kindred crests, so if its quite good I'll go ahead and start it now.

I'd say it really depends on victory smite. The tapian fangs+1 are 26 dmg and 8 str.

8 str is 2fstr, making them 28 dmg when fstr is uncapped. Then we have 4 attack from the 8 str and 18 attack from the wep itself for 22 attack, which I'm sure beats 6 delay

Same, I used dunes as well. Wasn't prepared to drop money on Poise when I knew they'd become outdated a month later.

Well I'll have to *** the situation. Not sure I want to drop all kinds of time into new trials for one job when there will be even more changes coming in the near future.

All these updates make me want to just level all jobs up and worry about the gear once we hit 99.

I'd wait for someone else to get victory smite and test it before dumping time/effort into that wep

Sucks cause I just dropped points into my brisk mask for my TP setup too lol. Bummer