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AGI or EVA?
Serveur: Sylph
Game: FFXI
Posts: 15064
By Sylph.Tigerwoods 2010-07-05 07:18:38
to go further into this
Quote: is that Evasion skill works to directly offset a weapon's skill, or in other words, it's a direct lower % chance to get hit, whereas Evasion counterbalances accuracy to create a lower chance to get hit also, but it's a static decrease.
If this were to hold true, weapon's skill+ would also have the same relationship with mob's evasion, and let's say sea torques for example, increase your hit rate no more on byakko(which obviously has more eva skill being a thf mob and higher lv) than it does a colibri.
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Serveur: Sylph
Game: FFXI
Posts: 15064
By Sylph.Tigerwoods 2010-07-05 07:20:08
Siren.Enternius said: I'd say my experience matters more than someone who's just saying "That's not how it works because no one has tests". You can say w/e you please, doesn't make it hold any water.
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 Remora.Laphine
Serveur: Remora
Game: FFXI
Posts: 356
By Remora.Laphine 2010-07-05 07:26:46
Why is cor worried about evasion? lol sorry but a D skill and 230 skill cap at 80, a cor wont evade rocks thrown at him. Thats 71 less skill points than a thf gets, 119 less evasion adding the job traits. A cor wanting to evade is like a pld trying the same..bah, actually, pld evades more lol (C skill).
Another argument is that agi increases parrying. You gotta remember that you need to be engaged and facing the mobs to parry anything. If you are going to solo (a situation that equiping eva is arguably useful) as cor, when exactly are you engaging anything? i thought cor solo is = QD + run away.
Serveur: Sylph
Game: FFXI
Posts: 15064
By Sylph.Tigerwoods 2010-07-05 07:29:26
Remora.Laphine said: Why is cor worried about evasion? lol sorry but a D skill and 230 skill cap at 80, a cor wont evade rocks thrown at him. Thats 71 less skill points than a thf gets, 119 less evasion adding the job traits. A cor wanting to evade is like a pld trying the same..bah, actually, pld evades more lol (C skill).
Another argument is that agi increases parrying. You gotta remember that you need to be engaged and facing the mobs to parry anything. If you are going to solo (a situation that equiping eva is arguably useful) as cor, when exactly are you engaging anything? i thought cor solo is = QD run away.
Quote: if campaigning as COR77/RNG38
Remora.Laphine
Serveur: Remora
Game: FFXI
Posts: 356
By Remora.Laphine 2010-07-05 07:30:49
Siren.Enternius said: Sylph.Tigerwoods said: Quote: though no evidence to support
aka, you think that's how it works, not know how it works I never said I know how it works. I said that's what seemed to work for me, and coming from someone that relied wholly on an Evasion set for NIN/DNC to solo Charybdis on occasions, I'd say my experience matters more than someone who's just saying "That's not how it works because no one has tests".
Well i'm a thf main and i've done my evasion wonders too (like 4man gods and holding them when my tank was down for the whole weak duration)...Sorry but my thought on eva is exactly like vegetto is pointing out.
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Remora.Laphine
Serveur: Remora
Game: FFXI
Posts: 356
By Remora.Laphine 2010-07-05 07:33:04
lol isnt campaign mobs like monstrous in lvl? in a way that it will be even harder to evade lol. Still i guess at least you will be engaged so parrying will actually happen.
 Caitsith.Silvaria
Serveur: Caitsith
Game: FFXI
Posts: 269
By Caitsith.Silvaria 2010-07-05 16:42:17
Bismarck.Josiahkf said: Remora.Laphine said: lol isnt campaign mobs like monstrous in lvl? in a way that it will be even harder to evade lol. Still i guess at least you will be engaged so parrying will actually happen.
They aren't too badass lol not hitting much harder than a normal lvl 78 mob for each job respectively but makes sense especially with their low evasion how she could easily pull hate for a few seconds as cor/rng
Thank you, LOL...my ranged attacks actually do pull in a decent amount of hate, especially along with Slug Shot and Barrage, which is why I was asking the question in the first place.
It sounds as if an increase in both is going to be fairly helpful, with more emphasis on EVA if I'm /NIN or soloing.
Thanks to everyone who replied. Much appreciated. 8)
Leviathan.Pimpstix
Serveur: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
Posts: 56
By Leviathan.Pimpstix 2010-07-05 18:34:10
Only jobs in my mind worthy of even attempting evasion builds are THF, NIN, MNK, DNC.... most the other jobs seem like it would be best to just /nin and call it a day. Correct me if im wrong.
 Bismarck.Maxse
Serveur: Bismarck
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1197
By Bismarck.Maxse 2010-07-06 09:44:12
Not this ***agisn. I can redo my parse if you all wanna say your personal experience > controled testing. On steelshells with + 20 evasion skill and than + 20 evasion I parsed 1000 hits in each setup same agl in both. They both bumped my evade rate up approximatly 10%. Was solo sam/dnc no buffs besides pro shell and haste from my npc back turned entire time so parrys didn't mess up results. In case ur wondering one setup used scorpian harness and 2 elusive earrings and the other boxers mantle evasion earring and evasion torque.
By Cataroux 2010-07-06 10:21:41
This is off subject of the thread starters main question, but think of Evasion Skill as Your glass and Evasion your water. Evasion skill raise your cap and evasion fills it.
Now, as for AGI vs EVA/Evasion skill for COR. You're a D class in terms of Evasion skill so you're really not gonna beable to get that much out of it as a MNK THF DNC NIN would. AGI while converts to Evasion it also improves Rng'd ACC Therefore you're best bet is in AGI rather EVA.
Bismarck.Maxse
Serveur: Bismarck
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1197
By Bismarck.Maxse 2010-07-06 10:31:51
Cataroux said: This is off subject of the thread starters main question, but think of Evasion Skill as Your glass and Evasion your water. Evasion skill raise your cap and evasion fills it.
Now, as for AGI vs EVA/Evasion skill for COR. You're a D class in terms of Evasion skill so you're really not gonna beable to get that much out of it as a MNK THF DNC NIN would. AGI while converts to Evasion it also improves Rng'd ACC Therefore you're best bet is in AGI rather EVA.
No this is a very old unproven theory and doesn't hold any water. Are you blind, did you not read my post where I actually parsed 2000 swings at me. They are both either the same or so virtually the same the difference is too small for a parse to even pickup forget eyeballing.
Bismarck.Maxse
Serveur: Bismarck
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1197
By Bismarck.Maxse 2010-07-06 17:00:18
Pandemonium.Spicyryan said: Cataroux said: This is off subject of the thread starters main question, but think of Evasion Skill as Your glass and Evasion your water. Evasion skill raise your cap and evasion fills it.
Now, as for AGI vs EVA/Evasion skill for COR. You're a D class in terms of Evasion skill so you're really not gonna beable to get that much out of it as a MNK THF DNC NIN would. AGI while converts to Evasion it also improves Rng'd ACC Therefore you're best bet is in AGI rather EVA.
Yeah, because it is not like you are capped on accuracy in campaign naked or anything, noooo, not at all.
Bismarck.Maxse said: No this is a very old unproven theory and doesn't hold any water
I see what you did there!
Lol ya couldn't help myself
By Raldo 2010-07-06 17:26:00
Bismarck.Maxse said: Not this *** agisn. I can redo my parse if you all wanna say your personal experience > controled testing. On steelshells with + 20 evasion skill and than + 20 evasion I parsed 1000 hits in each setup same agl in both. They both bumped my evade rate up approximatly 10%. Unfortunately, even this testing is flawed. It's still possible to get the results that you did, even if the glass/water theory were true. If someone reeeeally cares, I would suggest re-running the tests with a third parse: one with +10 skill and +10 evasion, along with the two +20 types.
No one's done enough testing for my tastes to say one way or the other. My personal opinion would be that there's two separate checks. One checks the attacker's combat skill vs the defender's evasion skill. Then somehow using that result, it takes any +/-acc and +/-eva into account, but I won't even try to guess at their formulas.
Bismarck.Maxse
Serveur: Bismarck
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1197
By Bismarck.Maxse 2010-07-06 17:29:14
Why the hell would i check with lower amounts that doesnt even make any sense. The higher the amount the easier it is to test.
And I dont really care about your tastes thats not a good enough reason for me to reparse anything, now If you had a valid point about what is wrong with my testing than sure ide consider retesting.
Coming from someone that doesn't even understand how accuracy is calculated though not worth my time beyond this response.
By Raldo 2010-07-06 22:14:53
Bismarck.Maxse said: I don't really understand what you're saying, please elaborate, but I'm grumpy so I probably won't listen to you anyway.
Coming from someone that doesn't even understand how accuracy is calculated though not worth my time beyond this response. When I said +10evasion, +10skill I meant both of them at once. 10+10=20, the same number you were using. All I was trying to say is that it's possible, not saying it will, that that test will give you different results.
That being said, I don't care enough about evasion to run any tests at all, so I don't blame you not wanting to run anything more than you already have.
And finally, no one knows exactly how accuracy is calculated, that's basically the whole reason why we don't understand how evasion is calculated; so get off your high horse.
Bismarck.Maxse
Serveur: Bismarck
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1197
By Bismarck.Maxse 2010-07-07 02:27:30
Raldo said: Bismarck.Maxse said: I don't really understand what you're saying, please elaborate, but I'm grumpy so I probably won't listen to you anyway.
Coming from someone that doesn't even understand how accuracy is calculated though not worth my time beyond this response. When I said 10evasion, 10skill I meant both of them at once. 10 10=20, the same number you were using. All I was trying to say is that it's possible, not saying it will, that that test will give you different results.
That being said, I don't care enough about evasion to run any tests at all, so I don't blame you not wanting to run anything more than you already have.
And finally, no one knows exactly how accuracy is calculated, that's basically the whole reason why we don't understand how evasion is calculated; so get off your high horse.
Actually the formula for evasion is well known get out from under your rock.
Edit: Meant to say the formula for accuracy, but ya the formula for evasion is too.
Lakshmi.Jaguarx
Serveur: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
Posts: 902
By Lakshmi.Jaguarx 2010-07-07 02:54:45
Sylph.Tigerwoods said: Siren.Enternius said: Of course Evasion skill is better than both, to some extent. Not this ***again. No noticeable diff between eva and eva skill
This made me lol
(I was one of those who was their for the eva + eva skill 349823043 forums)
>_>
Serveur: Ifrit
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2328
By Ifrit.Darkanaseur 2010-07-07 03:46:59
Raldo said: And finally, no one knows exactly how accuracy is calculated, that's basically the whole reason why we don't understand how evasion is calculated; so get off your high horse.
lol
By Dinkydoo 2010-07-07 17:01:40
Cor has a decent amount of high AGI+ equipment and the fact that it doubles as ranged accuracy as well as evasion makes it more effective in my opinion. i try to avoid equipment changing alot in campaign due to all the damn lag, otherwise... yeah for the sole purpose of staying alive 1 evasion > 1 AGI.
I'm not good at figuring out math, so I implore those of with mathematically oriented brains to please explain to me why AGI or EVA is better, if campaigning as COR77/RNG38 and obviously not intending to pull,just buff, use cards, and Slug Shot.
Not interested in knowing THE best set up, just curious about which is better in this particular instance...AGI, or EVA? Or are they both screwed and something else entirely would be better?
Thanks to everyone who replies, albeit helpfully or sarcastically. 8D
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