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Haste is NOT exponential...
 Leviathan.Duvessa
Serveur: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
Posts: 287
By Leviathan.Duvessa 2010-05-12 09:06:58
Ramuh.Dasva said: Right and reducing delay by a set amount doesn't increase attack speed by the same amount
600 delay with 50% haste = 300 delay.
600 delay = 10 seconds per swing. 50% haste = 5 seconds per swing.
The math:
600 x .5 = 300 delay
600/60 = 10 seconds
300/60 = 5 seconds
It's a constant.
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Leviathan.Duvessa
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By Leviathan.Duvessa 2010-05-12 09:08:31
Asura.Barthalomew said: dude... you're from Vietnam no one cares about what YOU have to say...
Those stripes in your flag are red right? America has a socialist president. Not much difference between the two :P
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By Asura.Barthalomew 2010-05-12 09:08:57
Leviathan.Duvessa said: Asura.Barthalomew said: dude... you're from Vietnam no one cares about what YOU have to say... Those stripes in your flag are red right? America has a socialist president. Not much difference between the two :P
>_>...
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 Asura.Korpg
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By Asura.Korpg 2010-05-12 09:10:30
Haste does not work the way BG thinks it does.
Because if it does, then there is no reason to add 1% haste for casting spells (like Ni) because the return wouldn't be in effect at all, unless you had a BRD cast you haste (because the only way anyone can get the effect of haste that anyone wants would be thru BRD songs, not gear, not actual spells, not Haste Samba).
BG takes a simple concept and tries to make it difficult just so it creates the illusion of intelligence.
If it really was that way, then people would say Turban > Ace's Helm....oh wait, people do anyway >.>
Leviathan.Duvessa
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By Leviathan.Duvessa 2010-05-12 09:10:46
Damage returns from haste MIGHT be exponential, i don't know. That would require testing. BUT haste itself is not an exponential variable. So people really should word that whole thing differently.
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 Valefor.Argettio
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By Valefor.Argettio 2010-05-12 09:11:08
The statement about haste being exponential is not related to the delay, but the swing rate.
5/500 = 1%
5/380 = 1.31%
5/375 = 1.33%
5/100 = 5.00% (capped haste)
The reduction in delay is constant (5 delay in this case) but the increase in swing speed increases for each 1% haste you add is higher the more haste you have.
Your DoT is related to your swing speed; therefore haste has increasing returns in terms of damage done.
Badly explained, but I hope you get the idea.
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By Shiva.Flionheart 2010-05-12 09:13:23
Does haste make me do ***faster?
That's all I need to know.
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 Hades.Zandra
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By Hades.Zandra 2010-05-12 09:16:23
While you are technically right it's only in regards to delay.
Adding more haste exponentially increases your Damage Over Time.
Adding 50% haste doubles your damage output.
Adding 25% more doubles it again.
Adding 12.5% more doubles it again (used to)
Adding 6.25% more doubles it again (used to)
Just sayin...
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Serveur: Sylph
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By Sylph.Tigerwoods 2010-05-12 09:17:21
Asura.Korpg said: Vegetto isn't exactly one who anyone can trust with math anyway.
His "formulas" he presents as his own are usually others, and when he tries to post anything of his thought, its always wrong.
So I wouldn't bother listening to Vegetto, he is a proven idiot anyway. Better than anything you've ever posted on this site :)
Phoenix.Kojo
Forum Moderator
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By Phoenix.Kojo 2010-05-12 09:18:25
Speaking of Haste Samba, It isn't really a Haste effect, is it? It more or less seems to only lower delay between hits where it procs, you don't hit, then no reduction. Is that right?
Leviathan.Duvessa
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Posts: 287
By Leviathan.Duvessa 2010-05-12 09:19:13
Incorrect, Argettio.
Here is an example:
500 delay with 1% haste = 495 delay.
500 delay with 24% haste = 380 delay
500 delay with 25% haste = 375 delay.
Now:
500/60 = 8.3333 secs
496/60 = 8.2666 secs
380/60 = 6.3333 secs
375/60 = 6.25 secs
Now to disprove:
6.25 secs / 8.33 secs = 0.750 (which is 25% haste's multiplier)
6.3333 / 8.33 secs = 0.76 (24% haste)
8.2666 / 8.33 secs = .99 (1% haste)
The attack speed is a constant along with the haste returns.
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By Ramuh.Sagittario 2010-05-12 09:19:30
Right guys:
Haste is a directly deduced by the number of CHR you has minus weapon delay x0.5
Trust me I tested this with my subligar.
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By Shiva.Flionheart 2010-05-12 09:19:50
Haste is based of chr anyways, Why do you think pld's try to stack chr often in /nin?
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By Shiva.Lorielain 2010-05-12 09:20:00
So you're saying that the more haste you havem the faster your weapon swings, which makes each % of haste a little bit better as time goes on, if only by a few milliseconds?
This, plus double attack and the like, will DEFINITELY explain why the damage is exponential, if only because the more swings you have the more chances you have to Double attack and weapon skill.
Given a large enough amount of subjects, you would be able to see that the physical delay drop is not exponential, but rather the effects that the delay drop from haste IS.
Did I explain that about right?
What exactly IS the absolute haste cap from everything? I could see SAM/WAR Hasso + merited Haste Samba from a DNC when we hit 99, max gear haste... That's alrady what? 25+10+10, 45...plus haste spell being 15, so 60...
How much haste can a BRD give? I hear the hard cap on ALL haste together is 80%, but I've never reached that ~.~
Do you think that the update will adjust Hasso to give more than 10 STR, 10 acc, 10 haste when you're 99?
Ramuh.Krizz
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By Ramuh.Krizz 2010-05-12 09:22:16
Phoenix.Kojo said: Speaking of Haste Samba, It isn't really a Haste effect, is it? It more or less seems to only lower delay between hits where it procs, you don't hit, then no reduction. Is that right? That's a good question. I was about to reply and say you were wrong, but once I tried to start typing why I realized my reasoning didn't touch what you were saying.
Leviathan.Duvessa
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By Leviathan.Duvessa 2010-05-12 09:22:28
We aren't discussing damage returns, Lorielain, but yes you're somewhat correct on most of that. We're discussing attack speed returns specifically. Haste itself is not exponential. As was stated before, damage per second is.
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By Ifrit.Kungfuhustle 2010-05-12 09:23:20
HASTE IS NOT EXPONENTIAL, its a state of mind...
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By Ramuh.Sagittario 2010-05-12 09:23:20
Ramuh.Sagittario said: Right guys: Haste is a directly deduced by the number of CHR you has minus weapon delay x0.5 Trust me I tested this with my subligar. Shiva.Flionheart said: Haste is based of chr anyways, Why do you think pld's try to stack chr often in /nin?
See the subligar is not a lie!!!
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By Sylph.Tigerwoods 2010-05-12 09:23:52
Quote: Every 1% haste has the same effect on delay.
Wrong
We have 500 delay, 0% haste.
Add 1% haste
500 x .99 = 495 delay
1/(495/500) = 1.01% increase
So, now we have 79% delay and 80% delay
500 x .21 = 105
500 x .2 = 100
1/(100/105) = 5.00% increase
Sure, you're right, if you want to say that every 1% haste has the same effect on physical number of delay removed, 5, but you're wrong if you think that has the same effect on attack speed.
Also, Korpg, you can do your own math if you think this is wrong, but I don't think you, nor your dead piece of ***cat is capable of doing 8th grade math.
OP, let's say you have 5 dollars. You take 5 dollars away. now let's say you have 5,000,000 dollars. You take 5 dollars away.
In which scenario did you lose a higher % of money?
Delay works the same way, you have the same physical number taken away, but you have a larger % of your delay taken away, which is a higher % increase in attack speed.
Leviathan.Duvessa
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By Leviathan.Duvessa 2010-05-12 09:24:05
Ramuh.Krizz said: Phoenix.Kojo said: Speaking of Haste Samba, It isn't really a Haste effect, is it? It more or less seems to only lower delay between hits where it procs, you don't hit, then no reduction. Is that right? That's a good question. I was about to reply and say you were wrong, but once I tried to start typing why I realized my reasoning didn't touch what you were saying.
Kojo is right. Haste samba doesn't even add to the haste cap. It only effects weapon delay. It has 0 effect on spells or anything else. The mob has to be inflicted with the effect, and everytime a melee hits the mob they gain the -10% delay on their next swing. If they miss a swing, they miss the effect for 1 attack or until they hit again.
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By Shiva.Flionheart 2010-05-12 09:24:12
Ramuh.Sagittario said: Ramuh.Sagittario said: Right guys: Haste is a directly deduced by the number of CHR you has minus weapon delay x0.5 Trust me I tested this with my subligar. Shiva.Flionheart said: Haste is based of chr anyways, Why do you think pld's try to stack chr often in /nin?
See the subligar is not a lie!!!
Exactly, The subligar is god.
All hail the subligar.
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By Shiva.Lorielain 2010-05-12 09:24:44
Well, I think what you're talking about is a base DoT change.
A constant that is built upon by further effects of haste.
Ramuh.Krizz
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By Ramuh.Krizz 2010-05-12 09:25:05
Leviathan.Duvessa said: We aren't discussing damage returns, Lorielain, but yes you're somewhat correct on most of that. We're discussing attack speed returns specifically. Haste itself is not exponential. As was stated before, damage per second is. IMO, that's just being picky on terminology. Saying haste is exponential shouldn't be taken so literally when you know that it's the DOT that is raised exponentially.
 Sylph.Spency
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By Sylph.Spency 2010-05-12 09:25:18
1 + 2 / .4 = HASTE IS *** AWESOME!
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By Shiva.Flionheart 2010-05-12 09:25:38
And this is why I (as an anime and video game geek) even beat up the math geeks in school.
Leviathan.Duvessa
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By Leviathan.Duvessa 2010-05-12 09:26:12
Quote: Delay works the same way, you have the same physical number taken away, but you have a larger % of your delay taken away, which is a higher % increase in attack speed.
It's still linear. It's not exponential at all. Stacking more haste simply makes you attack faster. There is no greater rate of return nor a diminishing return.
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Serveur: Odin
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By Odin.Zicdeh 2010-05-12 09:27:19
Haste is not "Exponential".
Haste does have an Increasing return.
There is a difference, but they're often confused (Usually by people who want to seem smart by using fancy big words). Pretty much the More haste you have, the more you get out of adding more, up until the respective Magic, equipment and total caps. At least that's what I've been lead to believe. It's a dps observation, more than the actual hard numbers of the haste status effect.
Even if that wasn't true, I'm with Flion, it makes me hit ***faster. Nuff said.
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Leviathan.Duvessa
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Posts: 287
By Leviathan.Duvessa 2010-05-12 09:27:44
Shiva.Flionheart said: And this is why I (as an anime and video game geek) even beat up the math geeks in school.
I have an XDm-40 and a concealed weapons permit. Can try if you want. :P
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By Garuda.Aurilius 2010-05-12 09:29:04
Haste makes waste.
Like the time I wasted reading this crap.
So... Everyone runs around saying haste is exponential, but why is that?
500 delay with 1% haste lowers the delay by 5.
24% haste lowers your delay to 380 from 500.
25% haste lowers your delay to 375 from 500.
Every 1% haste has the same effect on delay.
The term exponential refers to a curved rate of return that gets either greater or lesser at a faster rate the more you add to it. As you can plainly see in the example i showed, this is not the case. If it were, then going from 24 to 25% haste would have given a larger or smaller return than 5 delay, but as we can see it's a constant.
Yes, obviously the more haste you stack the better because it further reduces your delay by a constant amount, but it is in no way exponential. Every 1% you add will have the same exact effect on your delay as the first 1% you added. So... Why do people run around saying it's exponential?
So please, use a different word! Every time i read someone stating haste is exponential i want to slap them. It has a constant rate of return. It is a straight line. It is not exponential.
In case people still don't get it... This is a graph of an exponential return.
Here is a straight line graph, which is exactly how haste returns act:
(Note that these graphs weren't made by me and in no way reflect the actual values of haste, or have anything to do with haste. They are merely being used as a visual explanation of the difference between exponential and constant returns. Haste is NOT exponential.)
If haste were truly exponential, then adding 1% haste would do something like lower your delay by 5, while the 1% difference between 24 and 25 haste would lower your delay by like 15.
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