Haste Is NOT Exponential...

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Haste is NOT exponential...
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 Cerberus.Watanabie
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By Cerberus.Watanabie 2010-05-12 12:03:10
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Leviathan.Duvessa said:
I lost the argument.

Why did you start this thread? =(
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 Leviathan.Duvessa
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By Leviathan.Duvessa 2010-05-12 12:09:23
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Cerberus.Watanabie said:
Leviathan.Duvessa said:
I lost the argument.

Why did you start this thread? =(

Lol, nobody lost the argument cuz all 3 people who were discussing it were discussing different factors.

That being said... Discuss:
http://www.ffxiah.com/screenshots.php?id=41647


Paint is so fun :3
 Caitsith.Linear
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By Caitsith.Linear 2010-05-12 12:52:54
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What the... Why the hell were people calling for me for ten pages?!

I know... Lame joke is lame. ._.
 Carbuncle.Axle
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By Carbuncle.Axle 2010-05-12 13:23:57
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What OP argued (haste vs delay):



What everyone else argued back (haste vs attack rounds):


sums it up
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 Valefor.Argettio
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By Valefor.Argettio 2010-05-12 13:56:16
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Im glad I wasn't around for this mess, but Axle has hit the nail on the head.

Its a semantic argument based on Veggeto/me/others using poor language to explain that the effect haste has on damage done is a 1/X relationship (not exponential, but personally I haven't used that term).



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 Leviathan.Duvessa
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By Leviathan.Duvessa 2010-05-12 14:04:11
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Except the fact that the number of attacks per minute is merely a byproduct of the lowering delay. Irregardless, delay changes in a linear fashion based on haste... Which is all that was implied in the OP. It was even explicitly stated that the amount of attacks made per minute or the damage per second wasn't the topic of discussion. It was entirely based around delay. Other people brought up random tidbits of information unrelated to the basis of the OP. That's the life of the FFXIAH forums in a nutshell!
 Pandemonium.Machiaveli
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By Pandemonium.Machiaveli 2010-05-12 14:10:23
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Damn 10 pages already .
 Sylph.Spency
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By Sylph.Spency 2010-05-12 14:10:58
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Double attack is better than haste! Go!
 Sylph.Beelshamen
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By Sylph.Beelshamen 2010-05-12 14:13:52
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Valefor.Argettio said:
Im glad I wasn't around for this mess, but Axle has hit the nail on the head.

Its a semantic argument based on Veggeto/me/others using poor language to explain that the effect haste has on damage done is a 1/X relationship (not exponential, but personally I haven't used that term).



It surprises me that you classify this argument as being semantic.

Saying haste is exponential(assuming the OP's haste-delay table is correct) is wrong, it's not poor language. Failing to successfully describe CORRECT game mechanics would be poor language, however being so lazy as to reinforcing WRONG ideas doesn't belong in the semantics department. :)
 Leviathan.Duvessa
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By Leviathan.Duvessa 2010-05-12 14:16:40
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Sylph.Spency said:
Double attack is better than haste! Go!

If you could far surpass 50% double attack then it probably would be better. That would mean that one-half of your attacks would be double attacks. 25% haste gear cap = 50% faster swings. So if you had 0% chance to double attack when wearing 25% haste gear, then it'd probably be close in TP gain.

Though i think only DNC can hit 50% double attack with any weapon they use. And they can even exceed it if they wear double attack gear whilst using their 25% haste gear. (They'd essentially be gaining tp at the rate of 50% haste gear with that amount of double attack, assuming a constant rate of 50% double attacks occurred.) But the job ability deteriorates down 10% per minute to 30% when you can reuse it.

Thing with double attack though is it's chance-based. Haste will always take effect. And it also effects spells.
 Sylph.Spency
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By Sylph.Spency 2010-05-12 14:17:27
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I wasn't sirius o.o
 Leviathan.Duvessa
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By Leviathan.Duvessa 2010-05-12 14:18:59
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Sylph.Spency said:
I wasn't sirius o.o

I know you weren't. And the only job that can do it is DNC. Luckily they can easily hit 55+ percent double attack at the same time as wearing 25% haste gear :P
And that double attack all stacks with weapon skills too. Plus 10% haste samba and evasion/defense debuffs!

Cor/Dnc/Brd pt's are very fun. The DNC and COR need to be geared for DD for it to be really effective though.



I honestly don't think any other job can hit high enough double attack rate to be comparable to haste gear. I could be wrong though, but I don't know of any. Just fun to put the idea out there though. Lol

After all, haste gear serves 2 primary focuses... Faster TP gain and faster spells. Double attack can only do one of those, though. But in DNC's case, it does it very well. Rapid TP gain.
 Sylph.Spency
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By Sylph.Spency 2010-05-12 14:27:47
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lol I want to know who the dink is who's down-rating every single post in this thread. Or at least the last couple pages
 Asura.Dameshi
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By Asura.Dameshi 2010-05-12 14:28:30
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Sylph.Spency said:
lol I want to know who the dink is who's down-rating every single post in this thread.
 Sylph.Spency
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By Sylph.Spency 2010-05-12 14:29:02
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Asura.Dameshi said:
Sylph.Spency said:
lol I want to know who the dink is who's down-rating every single post in this thread.

PICARD!!!!!!!!!!!
 Asura.Dameshi
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By Asura.Dameshi 2010-05-12 14:32:07
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Sylph.Spency said:
Asura.Dameshi said:
Sylph.Spency said:
lol I want to know who the dink is who's down-rating every single post in this thread.

PICARD!!!!!!!!!!!
That's Captain Picard to you.
 Sylph.Spency
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By Sylph.Spency 2010-05-12 14:34:08
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Asura.Dameshi said:
Sylph.Spency said:
Asura.Dameshi said:
Sylph.Spency said:
lol I want to know who the dink is who's down-rating every single post in this thread.

PICARD!!!!!!!!!!!
That's Captain Picard to you.

We mutiny'd, I'm the Cap'n now.
 Leviathan.Duvessa
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By Leviathan.Duvessa 2010-05-12 14:35:34
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 Sylph.Tigerwoods
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By Sylph.Tigerwoods 2010-05-12 14:37:17
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at 0% haste and 0% double attack, adding 1% haste and 1% double attack will be almost the same increase (haste very very very slight more).

at 49% haste and 49% double attack

1 haste will give you more extra attacks than 1 DA
 Ifrit.Kungfuhustle
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By Ifrit.Kungfuhustle 2010-05-12 14:40:14
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Leviathan.Duvessa said:
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 Leviathan.Duvessa
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By Leviathan.Duvessa 2010-05-12 14:41:22
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Yea... I didn't realize it til you said it, i was going purely off percentages. But double attack actually is "somewhat" close to haste for a while in terms of tp gain.

for easiness' sake lets say you attack at base once every 10 secs.

You hit 6 times a minute.

with 25% haste you will hit every 7.5 secs, or exactly 8 times a minute.

with 25% double attack you, ideally, will hit the normal 6, and 1.5 double attacks. That'd be 7.5 attacks per minute.


Thinking about it now, DNC really is a TP fiend then lol. I don't really use my DNC all that much, cuz i don't have all the haste gear for it yet. But i got the WS gear down. 50% double attack + 25% haste would be 12 attack phases in that same minute, assuming a 10 second base delay (a huge overestimate of course)
 Sylph.Tigerwoods
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By Sylph.Tigerwoods 2010-05-12 14:44:29
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It's not somewhat similar really. Look at 50% haste and 50% double attack.

50% haste cuts your delay in half, so if you attacked 10 times, you'd have attacked 20 times.

50% double attack, if you attacked 10 times, 10 x 1.5 = 15 times.
 Leviathan.Duvessa
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By Leviathan.Duvessa 2010-05-12 14:47:43
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Yea, that's why i said for a while lol.

At 25% they're both pretty close. What i meant was haste will progressively pull ahead at that point though.

Edit: Do you know when haste samba is calculated, veg? It's separate... but is it calculated before or after haste?

Edit2: Lol, nvm. Its calculated WITH haste, but it doesn't add to cap.
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 Siren.Kyte
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By Siren.Kyte 2010-05-12 15:12:22
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It's calculated as JA haste, and counts towards the cap of that category.
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 Leviathan.Duvessa
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By Leviathan.Duvessa 2010-05-12 15:15:10
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Siren.Kyte said:
It's calculated as JA haste, and counts towards the cap of that category.

Incorrect. It's calculated as job ability haste, but does NOT count towards cap. It's not technically haste. It does not affect spells, only your weapon delay.

It's been tested many times, it's definitely not added to any current haste cap.

here's the wiki quote
"Haste Samba is considered to be a "Job Ability Haste", much like Hasso, and as such will stack with Haste from other sources, such as equipment and magic, but unlike Hasso, it does not count toward the Haste cap."
 Leviathan.Willoflame
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By Leviathan.Willoflame 2010-05-12 15:28:55
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I don't think that anyone posted this, it's a graph for Haste+% vs. Double Attack. The debate isn't raging against Double Attack, so ignore that aspect if you wish. This is basically just a dummy's version of seeing how haste is an exponential equation:

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 Sylph.Tigerwoods
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By Sylph.Tigerwoods 2010-05-12 15:29:03
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You tested wrong then. It counts towards cap. Otherwise, w/ haste samba, you can get 90% haste, but you can't, hard cap will stop you at 80.

Not like it'd e a hard test either. Since 90% haste is twice as fast as 80% haste
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 Sylph.Tigerwoods
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By Sylph.Tigerwoods 2010-05-12 15:29:28
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Leviathan.Duvessa said:
Siren.Kyte said:
It's calculated as JA haste, and counts towards the cap of that category.

Incorrect. It's calculated as job ability haste, but does NOT count towards cap. It's not technically haste. It does not affect spells, only your weapon delay.

It's been tested many times, it's definitely not added to any current haste cap.

here's the wiki quote
"Haste Samba is considered to be a "Job Ability Haste", much like Hasso, and as such will stack with Haste from other sources, such as equipment and magic, but unlike Hasso, it does not count toward the Haste cap."
Wiki is wrong btw
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