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Lack of responsibility
Ramuh.Dasva
Serveur: Ramuh
Game: FFXI
Posts: 40469
By Ramuh.Dasva 2010-09-14 12:00:09
Ramuh.Vinvv said: You keep on ignoring the fact that the person who killed these people already died in prison.
IE someone else killed them
IE she didn't kill them. And you keep ignoring the fact that just because she didn't dirty her hands doesn't mean she isn't the murder. Using another person is little different than using a tool to accomplish it.
Phoenix.Excelior
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Game: FFXI
Posts: 2093
By Phoenix.Excelior 2010-09-14 12:00:10
Ramuh.Vinvv said: Phoenix.Excelior said: If you pull a trigger on a gun did you kill the person or did the gun? Obviously you did because you set into the motion the chain of events that led to the death of a person. While this lady didn't shoot them herself, had she not taken any action in the first place they would not have died. This was 100% avoidable and she is 100% responsible because of it. If you break into some1's house to rob them and they die of a heart attack, guess what, you're now guilty of felony murder. Which makes her accessory before the fact. Two people conspired to kill other people, one did the killing, one facilitated the killing. I'm not discrediting how guilty she was in causing the other persons death, I just can't justify killing someone for such a thing, life sentence? yes. Killing? No.
I suppose that is true. I may be a bit harsh when I consider justice, but I believe that people who aid criminals are just as guilty as those who perpetrated the acts. Wether or not the it was before or after the fact, she knew of the event, and directly or indirectly supported it. I think she deserves the same punishment.
Quetzalcoatl.Kanjirou
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Posts: 475
By Quetzalcoatl.Kanjirou 2010-09-14 12:00:41
Flionheart said: It's manslaughter not murder.
No, it's murder. Manslaughter is where your actions aren't intended to result in someone's death, but through reckless disregard for human life, they die anyways. An example would be hitting a highway construction worker because you're too busy texting on your phone to notice them: you didn't intend to kill them, but you were being incredibly reckless and irresponsible, and in the process, someone died. Here, however, there was clearly intent: she hired someone for the explicit purpose of killing her family. There's no middling about intent, here. It's established by the very nature of the crime. This is clear-cut murder.
Just because the woman didn't understand that she would be responsible without having to physically pull the trigger doesn't mean she wasn't responsible. She WAS responsible. It's like blaming the firing mechanism of a gun: you didn't physically cause bullet to hit the person, the gun did! You only pulled the trigger! Well, she only payed someone to pull the trigger.
And then telling one of them they could rape her teenage daughter in the process ... that's just sadistic.
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Ramuh.Vinvv
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Game: FFXI
Posts: 15542
By Ramuh.Vinvv 2010-09-14 12:01:30
Ramuh.Dasva said: Ramuh.Vinvv said: You keep on ignoring the fact that the person who killed these people already died in prison.
IE someone else killed them
IE she didn't kill them. And you keep ignoring the fact that just because she didn't dirty her hands doesn't mean she isn't the murder. Using another person is little different than using a tool to accomplish it. Still doesn't change the fact that she didn't kill them directly.
By Flionheart 2010-09-14 12:01:41
Ramuh.Dasva said: Ramuh.Vinvv said: You keep on ignoring the fact that the person who killed these people already died in prison.
IE someone else killed them
IE she didn't kill them. And you keep ignoring the fact that just because she didn't dirty her hands doesn't mean she isn't the murder. Using another person is little different than using a tool to accomplish it.
A human has moral and ethical choices to make, a tool does not.
It's not like he was forced to kill, he could have said no and reported her to the police.
By Flionheart 2010-09-14 12:02:16
Quetzalcoatl.Kanjirou said: Flionheart said: It's manslaughter not murder.
No, it's murder. Manslaughter is where your actions aren't intended to result in someone's death, but through reckless disregard for human life, they die anyways. An example would be hitting a highway construction worker because you're too busy texting on your phone to notice them: you didn't intend to kill them, but you were being incredibly reckless and irresponsible, and in the process, someone died. Here, however, there was clearly intent: she hired someone for the explicit purpose of killing her family. There's no middling about intent, here. It's established by the very nature of the crime. This is clear-cut murder.
Just because the woman didn't understand that she would be responsible without having to physically pull the trigger doesn't mean she wasn't responsible. She WAS responsible. It's like blaming the firing mechanism of a gun: you didn't physically cause bullet to hit the person, the gun did! You only pulled the trigger! Well, she only payed someone to pull the trigger.
And then telling one of them they could rape her teenage daughter in the process ... that's just sadistic.
Already cleared this up, it's considered manslaughter in the UK. the law differs in the US.
Ramuh.Vinvv
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Game: FFXI
Posts: 15542
By Ramuh.Vinvv 2010-09-14 12:02:20
Phoenix.Excelior said: Ramuh.Vinvv said: Phoenix.Excelior said: If you pull a trigger on a gun did you kill the person or did the gun? Obviously you did because you set into the motion the chain of events that led to the death of a person. While this lady didn't shoot them herself, had she not taken any action in the first place they would not have died. This was 100% avoidable and she is 100% responsible because of it. If you break into some1's house to rob them and they die of a heart attack, guess what, you're now guilty of felony murder. Which makes her accessory before the fact. Two people conspired to kill other people, one did the killing, one facilitated the killing. I'm not discrediting how guilty she was in causing the other persons death, I just can't justify killing someone for such a thing, life sentence? yes. Killing? No.
I suppose that is true. I may be a bit harsh when I consider justice, but I believe that people who aid criminals are just as guilty as those who perpetrated the acts. Wether or not the it was before or after the fact, she knew of the event, and directly or indirectly supported it. I think she deserves the same punishment.
Our government kill people every day and we pay them taxes, we should be put to death then right?
This is me using the same skewered logic you guys are using btw.
It just don't work like that.
Ramuh.Dasva
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Posts: 40469
By Ramuh.Dasva 2010-09-14 12:02:21
Ramuh.Vinvv said: Ramuh.Dasva said: Ramuh.Vinvv said: You keep on ignoring the fact that the person who killed these people already died in prison. IE someone else killed them IE she didn't kill them. And you keep ignoring the fact that just because she didn't dirty her hands doesn't mean she isn't the murder. Using another person is little different than using a tool to accomplish it. Still doesn't change the fact that she didn't kill them directly. Again semantics
Cerberus.Kalyna
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Posts: 21615
By Cerberus.Kalyna 2010-09-14 12:03:09
Phoenix.Darki said: death is something hon.
=o and on your mind it doesn't take a second to happen, maybe to you who isn't dying.
I'll even say that when dying in my death bed x years from now or in a hospital bed. Death means nothing. Where Death leads you is a different thing (i.e. Religious crap)
Ramuh.Vinvv said: Cerberus.Kalyna said: Vinvv
She set up the murder. She had criminal intent. It went thru. She's all happy about it. Now that she's gonna be executed, she's all "noooooo i wanna live! i'm scared of death!" She's not HELP I AM TRAPPED IN 2006 PLEASE SEND A TIME MACHINE, she's just scared.
too bad her current execution date is 23rd, day after ffxiv's release. I'd love to see it live =( She set up the murder, with the person who murdered them.
She and the murderer conspired to kill.
Who killed whom?
Shallenberger killed them.
Accessory before the fact, not saying that she is innocent, she just doesn't deserve to be put to death. She still should've known it was wrong. There's a quote in that news article where she said "God told me it was wrong. I didn't listen" or something like that. SHE KNEW it was wrong.
Also Shallenberger did get a death sentence but he killed himself before his time was up. Shallenberger and that *** both got death sentences. Now she's pleading her life because she doesn't want to die. Aka she's a coward.
Ramuh.Dasva
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Game: FFXI
Posts: 40469
By Ramuh.Dasva 2010-09-14 12:03:43
Flionheart said: Ramuh.Dasva said: Ramuh.Vinvv said: You keep on ignoring the fact that the person who killed these people already died in prison. IE someone else killed them IE she didn't kill them. And you keep ignoring the fact that just because she didn't dirty her hands doesn't mean she isn't the murder. Using another person is little different than using a tool to accomplish it. A human has moral and ethical choices to make, a tool does not.
It's not like he was forced to kill, he could have said no and reported her to the police. And how does that in anyway absovle her of murder?
By Artemicion 2010-09-14 12:03:49
Pulling the strings to make the action happen is being an accessory which shares no difference from the one who pulled the trigger himself. It's like blaming the dominoes for being what pushed the others over when you flicked the first one.
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By Fenrir.Skarwind 2010-09-14 12:03:49
Mankind is but a blink of an eye on this planet. It's up to us to live as peaceful as possible. But when that peace is broken I say hang the *** up.
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Phoenix.Darki
Serveur: Phoenix
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Posts: 9949
By Phoenix.Darki 2010-09-14 12:04:46
afterlife has nothing to do with religion lol religion just took an adaptation from spirituality of it.
but i can sure tell you a year ago i had something happen that i did die for secs. and secs are a loooong time on your mind lol
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Quetzalcoatl.Kanjirou
Serveur: Quetzalcoatl
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Posts: 475
By Quetzalcoatl.Kanjirou 2010-09-14 12:05:37
Flionheart said: Ramuh.Dasva said: Ramuh.Vinvv said: You keep on ignoring the fact that the person who killed these people already died in prison.
IE someone else killed them
IE she didn't kill them. And you keep ignoring the fact that just because she didn't dirty her hands doesn't mean she isn't the murder. Using another person is little different than using a tool to accomplish it.
A human has moral and ethical choices to make, a tool does not.
It's not like he was forced to kill, he could have said no and reported her to the police.
Which is why they're BOTH guilty.
Phoenix.Excelior
Serveur: Phoenix
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2093
By Phoenix.Excelior 2010-09-14 12:05:54
Ramuh.Vinvv said: Phoenix.Excelior said: Ramuh.Vinvv said: Phoenix.Excelior said: If you pull a trigger on a gun did you kill the person or did the gun? Obviously you did because you set into the motion the chain of events that led to the death of a person. While this lady didn't shoot them herself, had she not taken any action in the first place they would not have died. This was 100% avoidable and she is 100% responsible because of it. If you break into some1's house to rob them and they die of a heart attack, guess what, you're now guilty of felony murder. Which makes her accessory before the fact. Two people conspired to kill other people, one did the killing, one facilitated the killing. I'm not discrediting how guilty she was in causing the other persons death, I just can't justify killing someone for such a thing, life sentence? yes. Killing? No. I suppose that is true. I may be a bit harsh when I consider justice, but I believe that people who aid criminals are just as guilty as those who perpetrated the acts. Wether or not the it was before or after the fact, she knew of the event, and directly or indirectly supported it. I think she deserves the same punishment. Our government kill people every day and we pay them taxes, we should be put to death then right?
The act of killing people overseas isn't a domestic crime; There is no law against it. There are conducts and ethics behind war, for example we don't torture. If they made killing in wars illegal then perhaps.
However we do have laws similar in that regard(well they're more nation security policy). If a terrorist group were to detonate a nuke on American soil, and the nuke was found to have been from a country, we would most certainly obliterate them. That is to say: If a country sponsers an act of terror, you will be held responsible.
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By Sylph.Beelshamen 2010-09-14 12:06:22
Flionheart said: Ramuh.Dasva said: Ramuh.Vinvv said: You keep on ignoring the fact that the person who killed these people already died in prison.
IE someone else killed them
IE she didn't kill them. And you keep ignoring the fact that just because she didn't dirty her hands doesn't mean she isn't the murder. Using another person is little different than using a tool to accomplish it.
A human has moral and ethical choices to make, a tool does not.
It's not like he was forced to kill, he could have said no and reported her to the police.
A drugbaron rarely bloodies his own hands. A don(gangleader) rarely dirties his own shoes.
Yet they are the kind of criminals that are most wanted for valid reasons.
I don't know if you're saying what you're saying just to spark discussions, but it's complete ***. That woman is a murderer, the person she tasked the murders with is a murderer.
By Flionheart 2010-09-14 12:06:31
The entire death penalty is built on a system that assumes there is a hell.
Which is stupid.
Ramuh.Dasva
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Posts: 40469
By Ramuh.Dasva 2010-09-14 12:07:00
Fenrir.Skarwind said: Mankind is but a blink of an eye on this planet. It's up to us to live as peaceful as possible. But when that peace is broken I say hang the *** up. Too bad hanging is illegal now. It got the point accros for sure. I remember reading/seeing the last one up here on the news when I was a kid.
Phoenix.Darki
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Posts: 9949
By Phoenix.Darki 2010-09-14 12:07:17
laws don't mix very well with spirituality and religion, so idoubt it.
By Artemicion 2010-09-14 12:07:47
Ramuh.Dasva said: Fenrir.Skarwind said: Mankind is but a blink of an eye on this planet. It's up to us to live as peaceful as possible. But when that peace is broken I say hang the *** up. Too bad hanging is illegal now. It got the point accros for sure. I remember reading/seeing the last one up here on the news when I was a kid.
Isn't washington state one of the few if only state that still utilizes that method of death penalty?
While I think it's Utah that still has the firing squad.
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Posts: 367
By Asura.Theringer 2010-09-14 12:08:09
Cerberus.Kalyna said: With so many people on death row (even this article, the murder happened in 2002, it's 8 years later and the *** is still alive!?) Why don't they just get it over with and put them all up in a line, have Krizz and other people from the Armed Forces, Navy, Army, so on aka firing squad, and blast their brains out. Saves the taxpayers money. Saves the state and nation money. Killers are killed. Everyone's *** happy. GOD i hate this county.
I remember reading about someone dying by firing squad.. and it seemed rather costly.. iirc:
they have to have X amount of people (lets say 10.) - Those 10 people all have a gun, one of the 10 guns is loaded with real bullet(s) & the others are blanks.. No one is informed of which gun is loaded, so no one knows who actually killed them, so can't be "accountable" - if that makes sense. To me, that seems like it'd be hella expensive to set up.
Phoenix.Darki said: and the cycle of violence/murder never ends... good job!
An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind! :)
Way I see it, is a rather simplistic kinda view.. Who ever it is who has to administer a lethal dosage, fire up the chair or whatever.. is also a killer.. shouldn't they themselves be treated as such? (though oddly, I also kinda agree with death penalty, if nothing else, it should act as a deterrant)
(editted coz I suck with splitting quotes! :( )
By Flionheart 2010-09-14 12:08:15
Phoenix.Darki said: laws don't mix very well with spirituality and religion, so idoubt it.
That would explain why you have to swear on the bible.
If I was a murderer I'd have no problem lying in that courthouse.
Ramuh.Vinvv
Serveur: Ramuh
Game: FFXI
Posts: 15542
By Ramuh.Vinvv 2010-09-14 12:08:39
Phoenix.Excelior said: Ramuh.Vinvv said: Phoenix.Excelior said: Ramuh.Vinvv said: Phoenix.Excelior said: If you pull a trigger on a gun did you kill the person or did the gun? Obviously you did because you set into the motion the chain of events that led to the death of a person. While this lady didn't shoot them herself, had she not taken any action in the first place they would not have died. This was 100% avoidable and she is 100% responsible because of it. If you break into some1's house to rob them and they die of a heart attack, guess what, you're now guilty of felony murder. Which makes her accessory before the fact. Two people conspired to kill other people, one did the killing, one facilitated the killing. I'm not discrediting how guilty she was in causing the other persons death, I just can't justify killing someone for such a thing, life sentence? yes. Killing? No. I suppose that is true. I may be a bit harsh when I consider justice, but I believe that people who aid criminals are just as guilty as those who perpetrated the acts. Wether or not the it was before or after the fact, she knew of the event, and directly or indirectly supported it. I think she deserves the same punishment. Our government kill people every day and we pay them taxes, we should be put to death then right?
The act of killing people overseas isn't a domestic crime; There is no law against it. There are conducts and ethics behind war, for example we don't torture. If they made killing in wars illegal then perhaps.
However we do have laws similar in that regard(well they're more nation security policy). If a terrorist group were to detonate a nuke on American soil, and the nuke was found to have been from a country, we would most certainly obliterate them. That is to say: If a country sponser and act of terror, you will be held responsible. I don't really feel like discussing this anymore, maybe if I had a redbull today I might have but, I have my position, you have yours.
I secede to you and Dasva this discussion because I just don't have the patience to repeat the same things.
That and elaborating about our governments misdeeds is a whole complete taco I am not ready to eat at the moment.
Quetzalcoatl.Kanjirou
Serveur: Quetzalcoatl
Game: FFXI
Posts: 475
By Quetzalcoatl.Kanjirou 2010-09-14 12:09:09
Flionheart said: Quetzalcoatl.Kanjirou said: Flionheart said: It's manslaughter not murder.
No, it's murder. Manslaughter is where your actions aren't intended to result in someone's death, but through reckless disregard for human life, they die anyways. An example would be hitting a highway construction worker because you're too busy texting on your phone to notice them: you didn't intend to kill them, but you were being incredibly reckless and irresponsible, and in the process, someone died. Here, however, there was clearly intent: she hired someone for the explicit purpose of killing her family. There's no middling about intent, here. It's established by the very nature of the crime. This is clear-cut murder.
Just because the woman didn't understand that she would be responsible without having to physically pull the trigger doesn't mean she wasn't responsible. She WAS responsible. It's like blaming the firing mechanism of a gun: you didn't physically cause bullet to hit the person, the gun did! You only pulled the trigger! Well, she only payed someone to pull the trigger.
And then telling one of them they could rape her teenage daughter in the process ... that's just sadistic.
Already cleared this up, it's considered manslaughter in the UK. the law differs in the US.
I'm not that familiar with UK law, but I have a really hard time buying this.
You decide you want someone dead. You take it upon yourself, entirely free of coercion, to bring about their death. Your actions succeed in resulting in their death.
How is this not murder?
Phoenix.Darki
Serveur: Phoenix
Game: FFXI
Posts: 9949
By Phoenix.Darki 2010-09-14 12:10:15
Flionheart said: Phoenix.Darki said: laws don't mix very well with spirituality and religion, so idoubt it.
That would explain why you have to swear on the bible.
If I was a murderer I'd have no problem lying in that courthouse. courthouse not the same as laws hon.
courthouse works different when you have a case going, religion doesn't make the laws.
society's point of view does, killing a prisoner is ensuring they wont do any more harm and killing whatever chances they still have at life.
It's not about going to hell, if it was built that way it gives them a chance to feel regret and end up in heaven (by religion's laws)
Phoenix.Darki
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Posts: 9949
By Phoenix.Darki 2010-09-14 12:11:34
I'm not very clingy to the idea of death unless the person truly is THAT dangerous. Just locking this *** up in a cell is enough, but I think she really did piss on the judge enough to be sent killed.
Ramuh.Dasva
Serveur: Ramuh
Game: FFXI
Posts: 40469
By Ramuh.Dasva 2010-09-14 12:12:51
Flionheart said: The entire death penalty is built on a system that assumes there is a hell.
Which is stupid. Really? I don't view death as a punishment... not compared to what you could do. It's more of you are a detriment to society and aren't worth the time/effort/money to attempt to reform.
Though I did like a short story I read once... basically criminals (or just political dissidents) would be killed repeatidly in exteremely painful/inhuman manners having their brains downloaded into clones of them right as they die. Afterwards the having the new clean up the mess. They would never actually kill them cause capitol punishment had been deemed inhumane lol. This continued until the person recanted in front of a test group of people well enough that everyone believed they were truly sorry for whatever it was and wouldn't ever do it again. Which in turn would be broadcast out helping to keep anyone else from doing it. Of course you weren't allowed to recant until you had died at least once
By Flionheart 2010-09-14 12:12:52
Phoenix.Darki said: Flionheart said: Phoenix.Darki said: laws don't mix very well with spirituality and religion, so idoubt it.
That would explain why you have to swear on the bible.
If I was a murderer I'd have no problem lying in that courthouse. courthouse not the same as laws hon.
courthouse works different when you have a case going, religion doesn't make the laws.
society's point of view does, killing a prisoner is ensuring they wont do any more harm and killing whatever chances they still have at life.
It's not about going to hell, if it was built that way it gives them a chance to feel regret and end up in heaven (by religion's laws)
Think back to when the death penalty originated, Do you think it was really created to simply remove someone from society? Nearly all law has a religious undertone and it's ridiculous.
Phoenix.Darki
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Game: FFXI
Posts: 9949
By Phoenix.Darki 2010-09-14 12:13:45
Flionheart said: Phoenix.Darki said: Flionheart said: Phoenix.Darki said: laws don't mix very well with spirituality and religion, so idoubt it.
That would explain why you have to swear on the bible.
If I was a murderer I'd have no problem lying in that courthouse. courthouse not the same as laws hon.
courthouse works different when you have a case going, religion doesn't make the laws.
society's point of view does, killing a prisoner is ensuring they wont do any more harm and killing whatever chances they still have at life.
It's not about going to hell, if it was built that way it gives them a chance to feel regret and end up in heaven (by religion's laws)
Think back to when the death penalty originated, Do you think it was really created to simply remove someone from society? Nearly all law has a religious undertone and it's ridiculous.
I disagree, and my point still goes, don't want to repeat myself and go on the same cycle with you over and over.
it's kinda boring.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/09/13/AR2010091306282.html?sid=ST2010091306394
Tl;DR: This woman plead guilty to charges against her where
she paid a man to kill her husband, stepson, and let one of the murders have sex with her 16 year old daughter. She is to be executed on the 23rd, the first woman to be executed in VA in 100 years.
She is now begging for her life saying she acted out of character and that she thought she was innocent since it wasn't her pulling the trigger.
Can anyone take this person seriously? It says she's border line mentally retarded but even my mentally retarded cousin knows right from wrong. It's really annoying to see horrible people like this try to justify their actions instead of taking responsibility for what they've done.
Before any of you decide to use Mentally retarded as a defense know that being mentally retarded does not exclude you from Mens Rea. She KNEW exactly what was happening, and she knew it was wrong.
Thoughts?
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