Opinionated History Lessons! World War 2!

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Opinionated History Lessons! World War 2!
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By Eboneezer 2020-01-16 20:25:15
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DirectX said: »
Well, we were discussing Iraq until Ebon decided to change the main subject to WW2.

I welcome anyone to head over to the All Trump thread and see that again, he's lying. I won't feed the troll anymore. Yall have fun with him.
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 Bahamut.Ravael
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By Bahamut.Ravael 2020-01-16 20:28:04
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Eboneezer said: »
DirectX said: »
Well, we were discussing Iraq until Ebon decided to change the main subject to WW2.

I welcome anyone to head over to the All Trump thread and see that again, he's lying. I won't feed the troll anymore. Yall have fun with him.

Just checked, you're right. He brought up WW2 first.
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By DirectX 2020-01-16 20:41:51
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As a tiny side note, which I then said I was more interested in staying on topic. I didn't deny raising the point, I am denying being the one that wanted to change the main subject. Check again to see me try to bring it back to subject.
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By Leviathan.Draugo 2020-01-17 09:44:55
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Asura.Kingnobody said: »
Bahamut.Celebrindal said: »
1. Yes, you're right. and if you go out West, you see this. But when I see homes in my town here in Ohio built on top of obvious burial mounds of famous chiefs like they're just high ground, I think too much damage has been done in the Midwest to ever fully recover outside of a few sites preserved because the pre-War of 1812 settlers and military didn't need that area.
I live in South Texas and we have museums dedicated towards Native American history. Again, after the fact situation, things that were preserved were only done so by local residents, not governments.

Bahamut.Celebrindal said: »
2. 10000% correct. Our treatment of the American Citizen Japanese was disgraceful. And makes current actions at the Southern Border seem a lot more in line with the history of The United States.
The treatment of the Japanese Americans were horrific, even at that time. In a sense we were just as bad and complicit as the Germans at the time.

As for the current treatment of the Southern Border, I'm not allowed to discuss this by Rooks, so we have to leave it at that.

I agree that locking up AMERICANS of Japanese descent was not only wrong, but stupid (many of the Japanese Americans wanted to fight, and would have been extremely valuable assets in intelligence)

We did not treat them as bad as the Germans. We weren't executing them by the thousands. It was not an ethnic cleansing attempt.
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 Asura.Kingnobody
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2020-01-17 09:50:48
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Leviathan.Draugo said: »
many of the Japanese Americans wanted to fight, and would have been extremely valuable assets in intelligence
There were Japanese Americans on the battlefield. Mind you, they fought in the European front, and aren't well heard of, but are one of the most decorated regiments in the Army.

2nd Source for the people who hate wikipedia.

Just a fun fact to consider.
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 Leviathan.Draugo
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By Leviathan.Draugo 2020-01-17 09:55:33
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Asura.Kingnobody said: »
Leviathan.Draugo said: »
many of the Japanese Americans wanted to fight, and would have been extremely valuable assets in intelligence
There were Japanese Americans on the battlefield. Mind you, they fought in the European front, and aren't well heard of, but are one of the most decorated regiments in the Army.

2nd Source for the people who hate wikipedia.

Just a fun fact to consider.

Yea a few managed to stay out of the camps, it was stupid to send them to Europe though. They would have made excellent spies. Heres an idea to argue over:

If we had utilized Japanese Americans as spies and saboteurs, could we have won in the pacific while avoiding dropping dah bombs?

I'm getting verclempt, talk amongst yourselves.....
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 Bahamut.Celebrindal
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By Bahamut.Celebrindal 2020-01-17 10:01:43
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Leviathan.Draugo said: »
Yea a few managed to stay out of the camps, it was stupid to send them to Europe though. They would have made excellent spies. Heres an idea to argue over:

If we had utilized Japanese Americans as spies and saboteurs, could we have won in the pacific while avoiding dropping dah bombs?

Totally agree on proper usage of our multicultural society during times of war should be our strength, not something we hide. And there are minor examples from WW2, such as usage of the "Windtalkers" for a truly unbreakable code concept.

And these days we do actively use soldiers and marines of middle eastern decent as both liaisons between local communities and American forces, but also for intelligence gathering. Looking back on policies of the 1940s vs today, we certainly could have used our resources in a much smarter manner, but warfare has evolved more in this 100 year period than any other prior in human history. Hell, 100 years ago a Calvary meant actual horses! Process that for a moment!


*for the non military minded- we do still use the term Calvary for identification of specific units in the military, usually for groups of armored vehicles/tanks.




Leviathan.Draugo said: »
I'm getting verclempt, talk amongst yourselves.....

The New Deal was neither New, nor a Deal. Discuss.
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 Asura.Kingnobody
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2020-01-17 10:03:11
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Leviathan.Draugo said: »
If we had utilized Japanese Americans as spies and saboteurs, could we have won in the pacific while avoiding dropping dah bombs?
We did, actually.
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By Shiva.Zerowone 2020-01-17 10:12:16
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Leviathan.Draugo said: »
Yea a few managed to stay out of the camps, it was stupid to send them to Europe though. They would have made excellent spies. Heres an idea to argue over:

If we had utilized Japanese Americans as spies and saboteurs, could we have won in the pacific while avoiding dropping dah bombs?

I'm getting verclempt, talk amongst yourselves.....

Covfefe Talk!

Hot Take: No.

Bomb would be getting dropped regardless. If Roosevelt didn’t die, then maybe a different story.

I was in Hiroshima for the 50th anniversary back in 95’. I was with a WW2 veteran who was deployed in the pacific theatre. I asked him

“What was the reaction like among the ranks when the bomb dropped?”

“Honestly... a lot of us we’re in shock but not like how you’d think. It was realizing we had bombs that could destroy cities in an instant and we weren’t using them. Kind of a madness like we could have saved a lot friends by just dropping them from the get! Of course after all the testing and knowing now it’s a terrible technology and shouldn’t be used. But back then when just learning about it, the feeling was we should have using these from the start.”
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By Garuda.Chanti 2020-01-17 10:42:36
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Leviathan.Draugo said: »
...
I agree that locking up AMERICANS of Japanese descent was not only wrong, but stupid (many of the Japanese Americans wanted to fight, and would have been extremely valuable assets in intelligence)

We did not treat them as bad as the Germans. We weren't executing them by the thousands. It was not an ethnic cleansing attempt.
In the west coast states there was a long tradition of running the orientals out of town and either appropriating their property or snapping it up for pennies.

This was merely the last, and best, example of this tradition.

BTW, it only applied to the Japanese - Americans on the west coast. Those in Hawaii or elsewhere in the states weren't locked up.

Also note that although German - Americans had formal organizations supporting Nazi Germany before the war, and while the membership of the German American bund was known, not a single one was incarcerated.
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By Shiva.Zerowone 2020-01-17 10:51:37
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Garuda.Chanti said: »
Also note that although German - Americans had formal organizations supporting Nazi Germany before the war, and while the membership of the German American bund was known, not a single one was incarcerated.

Should also note that we did have POW Camps in the South West for Nazi Soldiers which according to many accounts was akin to “Summer Camps for Adults”.

But par for the course.
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By Carbuncle.Skulloneix 2020-01-17 13:02:32
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Shiva.Zerowone said: »
Garuda.Chanti said: »
Also note that although German - Americans had formal organizations supporting Nazi Germany before the war, and while the membership of the German American bund was known, not a single one was incarcerated.

Should also note that we did have POW Camps in the South West for Nazi Soldiers which according to many accounts was akin to “Summer Camps for Adults”.

But par for the course.
Which reminds me, at the museum in Chicago I learned that when we captured the U-Boat 505 and secured the Enigma machine, we had to keep the POWs separate from the rest to make certain no one would know we had the Enigma machine. The museum has the captured boat.
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By Cerberus.Senkyuutai 2020-01-17 15:24:54
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Bahamut.Celebrindal said: »
Its hard for the French to hear they were just another occupied country no different than Hungary or Poland.


Americans talking about history is the closest thing to virgins talking about sex online. It's truly delicious to read.
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By Asura.Saevel 2020-01-17 18:14:23
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Leviathan.Draugo said: »
Asura.Kingnobody said: »
Leviathan.Draugo said: »
many of the Japanese Americans wanted to fight, and would have been extremely valuable assets in intelligence
There were Japanese Americans on the battlefield. Mind you, they fought in the European front, and aren't well heard of, but are one of the most decorated regiments in the Army.

2nd Source for the people who hate wikipedia.

Just a fun fact to consider.

Yea a few managed to stay out of the camps, it was stupid to send them to Europe though. They would have made excellent spies. Heres an idea to argue over:

If we had utilized Japanese Americans as spies and saboteurs, could we have won in the pacific while avoiding dropping dah bombs?

I'm getting verclempt, talk amongst yourselves.....


Huh what? The US was already going to "win" the war, even the Japanese military knew this. The Japanese strategy was to make the victory so costly that the US would sue for peace earlier rather then later and thus offer the Japanese better terms. The invasion of the Japanese mainland would happen from both sides with US forces being deployed from the the Southern half of the Japanese colony of Korea, with support from the Korean resistance lead by Maj Kim Il Sung (that name should be ringing bells) who were based out of the Northern region of Korea.

Those plans were scrapped after the Japanese government gave semi-unconditional surrender (basically protection of the royal family). The US forces in the Southern portion of Korea went on to assist them in rebuilding, the Resistant forces of the North decided they wanted to do things their way and Maj Kim Ill Sung declared himself President Kim Ill Sung.

The rest is fodder for a different thread.
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By Viciouss 2020-01-17 18:36:54
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There really aren't any scenarios that involve forcing the Japanese to surrender without dropping the bombs. Like, none.
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By Leviathan.Draugo 2020-01-17 19:08:35
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Viciouss said: »
There really aren't any scenarios that involve forcing the Japanese to surrender without dropping the bombs. Like, none.

Saboteur/s infiltrating population, propagandize against the Japanese government's propaganda...... Turn public opinion, change motivations....

I don't think you realize what it takes to turn a population into warmongers.

Lots of lies. Start telling the population the truth and they are less inclined to go die for some other ***'s cause. A statement like the above is pretty closed minded.

Just cuz history went down one way, and is written as such, does not mean 'there is no way' it could have gone any different. Attitudes like that are kinda counter intuitive to 'learning from the past' now ain't it?
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By Bahamut.Ravael 2020-01-17 19:23:51
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I wouldn't say that there were no other options besides the atomic bombs (mainly because I don't think it's helpful to think in terms of absolutes), but I'd say you're vastly oversimplifying things. Changing public opinion is a strategy for the long game. The Japanese were actively at war with the U.S., and the Japanese people weren't following the Emperor just because of propaganda and lies, they were following because of a long-standing and heavily ingrained culture of honor, duty, and tradition. You don't change that overnight with a handful of saboteurs.
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By DirectX 2020-01-17 19:29:02
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The same is true about German soliders also. They didn't all want to conquer the world and kill Jews but were obliged to fight for their nation and die trying.
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By Viciouss 2020-01-17 19:47:56
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Leviathan.Draugo said: »
Viciouss said: »
There really aren't any scenarios that involve forcing the Japanese to surrender without dropping the bombs. Like, none.

Saboteur/s infiltrating population, propagandize against the Japanese government's propaganda...... Turn public opinion, change motivations....

I don't think you realize what it takes to turn a population into warmongers.

Lots of lies. Start telling the population the truth and they are less inclined to go die for some other ***'s cause. A statement like the above is pretty closed minded.

Just cuz history went down one way, and is written as such, does not mean 'there is no way' it could have gone any different. Attitudes like that are kinda counter intuitive to 'learning from the past' now ain't it?

I don't think you understand Japanese culture at all, specifically during WWII. Based on what happened at Okinawa, and then later after Hiroshima, where its widely believed they tried to assassinate their Emperor, who they believe is a descendant of a God, rather than surrender, its pretty delusional to think something like "public opinion" could convince them to surrender.
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By Jetackuu 2020-01-17 19:58:58
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Yeah, dropping the bombs saved an attempt at a long and costly invasion campaign. It unfortunately was the correct choice.
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By Shiva.Zerowone 2020-01-17 19:59:05
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The emperor of Japan during the war was essentially a puppet of the “Zaibatsu”.

The people were loyal to the emperor not the military-oligarch families of the “Zaibatsu”.

So while it would be possible to convince the people the Zaibatsu were manipulating the population and the emperor. Getting them to surrender would require an edict from the Emperor himself.

The Zaibatsu were savvy enough to keep the Emperor from ever doing that outside of an extreme circumstance.

We fire bombed Tokyo we literally burnt the outer and middle structures of the Imperial palace along with the city. Literally right outside his door and no announcement. I’ve seen the structures with my own eyes they’re still sitting inside first gate the second gate leading out from the guard dojo to ponds and marriage garden.

The bombs were the extreme circumstance that caused the Zaibatsu to lose control of the Emperor.


Edit: I do stand by early post. If Roosevelt didn’t die the bombs might not have been used. Truman didn’t give a’f and also had communism he wanted to put in check.
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By Shiva.Zerowone 2020-01-17 20:17:00
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Viciouss said: »
Based on what happened at Okinawa, and then later after Hiroshima, where its widely believed they tried to assassinate their Emperor, who they believe is a descendant of a God, rather than surrender, its pretty delusional to think something like "public opinion" could convince them to surrender.

Just something to point out here. The assassination attempt was a false flag by the Japanese military to get the emperor and populace on board. Much like how the Nanking Jiken started with a false flag bombing of a train.

*thanks to Alex Jones I hate using the term false flag but these were the true definition of false flag attacks.
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By Viciouss 2020-01-17 20:56:25
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Shiva.Zerowone said: »
Viciouss said: »
Based on what happened at Okinawa, and then later after Hiroshima, where its widely believed they tried to assassinate their Emperor, who they believe is a descendant of a God, rather than surrender, its pretty delusional to think something like "public opinion" could convince them to surrender.

Just something to point out here. The assassination attempt was a false flag by the Japanese military to get the emperor and populace on board. Much like how the Nanking Jiken started with a false flag bombing of a train.

*thanks to Alex Jones I hate using the term false flag but these were the true definition of false flag attacks.

We don't actually know that for sure, the Japanese gov't has blacked out that entire day, the assassination attempt is the most popular theory, but thats all it is, a theory.
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By Shiva.Zerowone 2020-01-17 21:07:39
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My Japanese professors say it’s the general consensus but you do have to parse Modern Japanese Cultures narrative against the “Traditional Japanese Cultural” narrative. Just based on the history of what happened in East Asia, it’s something that I wouldn’t put passed them.

Like: Why then would you need to black out the day?
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By Asura.Saevel 2020-01-17 21:39:58
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Bahamut.Ravael said: »
I wouldn't say that there were no other options besides the atomic bombs (mainly because I don't think it's helpful to think in terms of absolutes), but I'd say you're vastly oversimplifying things. Changing public opinion is a strategy for the long game. The Japanese were actively at war with the U.S., and the Japanese people weren't following the Emperor just because of propaganda and lies, they were following because of a long-standing and heavily ingrained culture of honor, duty, and tradition. You don't change that overnight with a handful of saboteurs.

He's horribly wrong with his history, the US didn't use a nuclear weapon to "win" the war, they used it to win with minimal US causalities. Plus they didn't know how much damage the fires would cause.

See the atomic weapons used then were very week and very primitive. The damage done to both those cities was not caused by the nuclear blast, but by all the secondary fires that were started as a result. When an atomic weapon goes off one of the effects is a blast of intense infrared radiation, what we call "heat". It's only present for a fraction of a second but it's intensity is such that it'll set anything flammable on fire. Stuff like untreated timber, paper, straw and bamboo light up like a match. Japanese cities were these massive sprawls of homes and shops made primarily from ... straw, bamboo and untreated wood.

The tests of the atomic weapons weren't done near structures that were so flammable. So when it went off, they had no idea it would cause a firestorm that would set the whole city on fire. They didn't even know this was happening until *after* the treaty was signed and they got to inspect the detonation sites. The massive destruction we see in those pictures is from the firestorm not the atomic detonation. When an atomic bomb goes off, there isn't anything left at the detonate site, just a big crater. The intense radiation disintegrates everything in the immediate area and the resulting pressure wave knocks everything nearby down. X-ray, Microwave and Gamma radiation cook anything nearby. None of those leave smoldering blackened burned out ruins.

Anyhow the US made the right call. Revisionists can scream, stamp their feet and make all the accusations they want, none of that changes the fact that the US Government is beholden to the US population first and foremost. The lives of US service members were/are more important then the lives of Japanese civilians. The only people responsible for the lives of Japanese civilians was/is the Japanese government. This is a harsh reality of the world and no amount of wishing or feelz can change that.
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By Viciouss 2020-01-17 22:25:15
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Shiva.Zerowone said: »
Edit: I do stand by early post. If Roosevelt didn’t die the bombs might not have been used. Truman didn’t give a’f and also had communism he wanted to put in check.

Disagree. Roosevelt would have dropped the bombs. The forecasts for the invasion of Japan, based on previous battles, specifically Okinawa, put American casualties around 1 million, and a complete wipeout of Japanese culture. We believed no Japanese would survive, and they would try to inflict as many casualties on the invaders (us) as possible. There is no way the bombs weren't getting dropped if they didn't surrender.
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By kireek 2020-01-18 07:13:14
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As sad as it is, the use of the Nuclear bomb on Hiroshima cemented in the minds of everyone in power how awful these things are. Which is why they have never been used since and probably never will again, there could of actually been a real nuclear war if this had not happened.

Also Japan before this was a totally different place, far more aggressive and concerned with honor in war, so what they are today is because of what happened then.

It's an awful thing, but if you could go back in time and change it you probably would not want to.
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