119 III Weapons

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119 III weapons
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 Shiva.Flowen
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By Shiva.Flowen 2016-02-19 05:10:33
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Has anyone done any testing to compare the weapons post update?
With current gearing options/content/situations, it would be interesting to see how significant the accuracy from the relics is(including evasion down from bravura).

For a ~45:55 tp damage:ws damage job, is triple procs on ukon enough to surpass the ws frequency (and sc damage) of conq?

Feel free to chime in with opinions aswell as data!
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By FaeQueenCory 2016-02-19 06:36:29
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A normal 119 weapon gives you ~217acc&atk.
These give you ~242+60=~302acc/atk.
Almost 100 more.


As for the empy v Mythic... Was actually JUST having this conversation yesterday.
For the most part, the "121"s will play out as: Mythic > Relic ≈ Aeonic (depends on the weapon which will wind up being better) > Empyrean

That being said, Empyreans make the best offhand weapons. Hands down. No comparison.

And, of course, there's exceptions. Like Armageddon being the best nonMythic gun for COR... Would need to see how that massive AGI affects the AGIvINT term for the WSs... But it even may be equal to Death Penalty. (Though I think the lower DMG and DP's +%dmg to Leaden Salute should make DP still better... But not by as much as before.)

For main 2handed weapons though... Empys kinda suck. Lowest base damage (coupled with most obnoxious to make), no linked WS bonus... AM that just makes them have the hidden effect of Relics which have that 100% of the time... AM that doesn't proc on WSs...
And then there's the lower acc on top of all of that?
Yeah. Empys are not good main hand weapons.
(And for things like GK or polearm, the Aeonics should prove better than even the relics. Especially polearm. Stardiver double light spam? <<Yes please.>>)

So it's really a weapon type by type deal... But Mythics will always be better than Empys.
There really is no comparison.
 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2016-02-19 07:00:07
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When discussing WAR you need to mention which context we are talking about. Best at what exactly?

On of the strongest weapons for WAR, in it's own context, is Empy Axe for Cloud Splitter usage. Correct buffs / debuffs and CS is doing 30K.

But if we're discussing pure physical setups, then Empy axe would suck hardcore. You then have Conq vs Ukon vs Rag with Bravura having a special usage. Rag Resolution is the strongest WS spam option but GS has pretty bad SC properties in general. Upheaval and Ukko's are both decent WSs with Upheaval getting a really nice boost from Aeonic. GAXE has weaker WS's but they are far better at SCing.

Bravura is a special case. It doesn't have as much raw power as Conq or Rag but it's additional effect and AM are both incredibly useful. With Bravura WAR can take hits and keep on swinging.
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By Sylph.Shadowlina 2016-02-19 07:34:25
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IT should also be noted, that afterglows stack.
A brief bit of testing with it, with a Yoichi and a Carn, showed that they where stacking, and each time the WS got used, it refreshed the stack on the afterglow.
However, they only stack, as long as they arent the same type I.E Relic + Relic = Wont stack.
Empy + Mythic = Will Stack.
Relic + Mythic = Will Stack.
Relic + Empy + Mythic = WillStack? (Not tested)

I'm unsure if they stack 3 way, but they certainly do stack 2 way.
Even if your not checking via /checkparam, just check the effect, it will say "Afterglow.effect.effect" instead of "Afterglow.effect".

the icon for afterglow is the same as relic aftermath,
I'm also on the assumption that the M.ACC Mythics also have stronger aftermaths of +18, rather than the +15 reported.
However, noone i know has afterglowed a 2handed weapon yet, so i cant directly test.

So regardless even if you don't have one, they are super are great for party content.
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By Shiva.Flowen 2016-02-19 11:37:41
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Asura.Saevel said: »
When discussing WAR you need to mention which context we are talking about. Best at what exactly?

On of the strongest weapons for WAR, in it's own context, is Empy Axe for Cloud Splitter usage. Correct buffs / debuffs and CS is doing 30K.

But if we're discussing pure physical setups, then Empy axe would suck hardcore. You then have Conq vs Ukon vs Rag with Bravura having a special usage. Rag Resolution is the strongest WS spam option but GS has pretty bad SC properties in general. Upheaval and Ukko's are both decent WSs with Upheaval getting a really nice boost from Aeonic. GAXE has weaker WS's but they are far better at SCing.

Bravura is a special case. It doesn't have as much raw power as Conq or Rag but it's additional effect and AM are both incredibly useful. With Bravura WAR can take hits and keep on swinging.

I wasn't really looking for 'best' as we all know everything is situational, but more of a comparison of situations where the weapon shines. Without gear set comparison it's difficult, but at the moment I see it coming down to the following... If you're in a situation where you'll benefit from accuracy then you should be using one of the relics. If you need accuracy you likely need attack and therefore resolution will struggle (and the content is hard enough that survivability is effected). If you're in a situation where you have close to capped accuracy then conq will beat ukon (reliably skill chaining with self and others).

That gets me to conq/bravura > rag > ukon in terms of usefulness for war. I don't know enough about the aeonic to place it at the moment.

Please comment/challenge away (I know this is making assumptions)
 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2016-02-19 12:37:09
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Shiva.Flowen said: »
If you need accuracy you likely need attack and therefore resolution will struggle (and the content is hard enough that survivability is effected)

This would be true for RUN and PLD but not WAR or DRK. WAR and DRK both have JT/JA's that give them massive attack buffs along with plenty of attack from gifts. Compiled with the raw fTP difference's between GAXE WS's and Resolution Rag spam ends up beating everything except possibly Conq, including Bravura and Ukon. Where GAXE really shines is skillchain power, which is what makes the Aeonic so interesting.

Ukko's Fury -> Steel Cyclone -> Upheaval -> Ukko's -> Ukko's

Five step double light that is extremely powerful.

For Rag GS the SC would be

Resolution -> Ground Strike -> Scourge -> Resolution -> Scourge

Scourge is much better then before, but it's still lacking when compared to the GAXE options. The last 3 steps of each can be used for a quick combo.

Now if we want to step outside of 2H there is still Fencer Savage Blade setups with a Tanmogayi +1 or the Reikiko which are utterly devastating. With gifts and moonshade WAR has over 1000TP Bonus for WS's like Savage, Mistral and Cloudsplitter. Hell I was doing silly damage using Judgement on a Club or Vorpal Blade with my Tanmogayi +1. WAR really is a job with a multitude of options and ways to kill stuff, each with it's own Pro / Con. It's one of the reasons I love it so much.
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By Siren.Kyte 2016-02-19 12:57:05
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Quote:
A brief bit of testing with it, with a Yoichi and a Carn, showed that they where stacking, and each time the WS got used, it refreshed the stack on the afterglow.

Given that Afterglows don't stack with Aftermaths (nor do they affect the user), this has extremely limited application.
[+]
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By Shiva.Flowen 2016-02-19 17:32:38
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Siren.Kyte said: »
Quote:
A brief bit of testing with it, with a Yoichi and a Carn, showed that they where stacking, and each time the WS got used, it refreshed the stack on the afterglow.

Given that Afterglows don't stack with Aftermaths (nor do they affect the user), this has extremely limited application.
Asura.Saevel said: »
Shiva.Flowen said: »
If you need accuracy you likely need attack and therefore resolution will struggle (and the content is hard enough that survivability is effected)

This would be true for RUN and PLD but not WAR or DRK. WAR and DRK both have JT/JA's that give them massive attack buffs along with plenty of attack from gifts. Compiled with the raw fTP difference's between GAXE WS's and Resolution Rag spam ends up beating everything except possibly Conq, including Bravura and Ukon. Where GAXE really shines is skillchain power, which is what makes the Aeonic so interesting.

Ukko's Fury -> Steel Cyclone -> Upheaval -> Ukko's -> Ukko's

Five step double light that is extremely powerful.

For Rag GS the SC would be

Resolution -> Ground Strike -> Scourge -> Resolution -> Scourge

Scourge is much better then before, but it's still lacking when compared to the GAXE options. The last 3 steps of each can be used for a quick combo.

Now if we want to step outside of 2H there is still Fencer Savage Blade setups with a Tanmogayi +1 or the Reikiko which are utterly devastating. With gifts and moonshade WAR has over 1000TP Bonus for WS's like Savage, Mistral and Cloudsplitter. Hell I was doing silly damage using Judgement on a Club or Vorpal Blade with my Tanmogayi +1. WAR really is a job with a multitude of options and ways to kill stuff, each with it's own Pro / Con. It's one of the reasons I love it so much.[/oi
[quote="Asura.Saevel" pid=3050519]
Shiva.Flowen said: »
If you need accuracy you likely need attack and therefore resolution will struggle (and the content is hard enough that survivability is effected)

This would be true for RUN and PLD but not WAR or DRK. WAR and DRK both have JT/JA's that give them massive attack buffs along with plenty of attack from gifts. Compiled with the raw fTP difference's between GAXE WS's and Resolution Rag spam ends up beating everything except possibly Conq, including Bravura and Ukon. Where GAXE really shines is skillchain power, which is what makes the Aeonic so interesting.

Ukko's Fury -> Steel Cyclone -> Upheaval -> Ukko's -> Ukko's

Five step double light that is extremely powerful.

For Rag GS the SC would be

Resolution -> Ground Strike -> Scourge -> Resolution -> Scourge

Scourge is much better then before, but it's still lacking when compared to the GAXE options. The last 3 steps of each can be used for a quick combo.

Now if we want to step outside of 2H there is still Fencer Savage Blade setups with a Tanmogayi +1 or the Reikiko which are utterly devastating. With gifts and moonshade WAR has over 1000TP Bonus for WS's like Savage, Mistral and Cloudsplitter. Hell I was doing silly damage using Judgement on a Club or Vorpal Blade with my Tanmogayi +1. WAR really is a job with a multitude of options and ways to kill stuff, each with it's own Pro / Con. It's one of the reasons I love it so much.

I don't doubt rag has amazing potential, but I still find you need to have some decent buffs to get steady numbers on reso. If we compare the relic options, rag has the serious crit rate going for it, but will bravura be that far behind when Eva/def down is considered?

I've also had some great fun with fencer builds, but I wanna upgrade something for my war and don't fancy Farsha lol
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By Asura.Saevel 2016-02-19 17:43:13
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Shiva.Flowen said: »
I don't doubt rag has amazing potential, but I still find you need to have some decent buffs to get steady numbers on reso. If we compare the relic options, rag has the serious crit rate going for it, but will bravura be that far behind when Eva/def down is considered?


Yes.

The only RME that competes with Rag is Conq due to it's enhanced berserk effect and AM3 procing on WS's. Rag's weakness is GS having poorer SC options then GAXE. Doing a five step double light on GAXE will put out more total damage then doing the same on GS or spamming WS's, provided the content isn't resistant to SC's.

You really need to understand the relative difference in power of these WS's.

Resolution 5 hit, copies fTP and damage varies with TP. Each hit will be 1.11 fTP with moonshade + belt + gorget for 5.5 fTP with 85% STR and -15% attack. Resolution gets extra fTP from DA procs and WAR happens to have a ridiculous amount of DA.

Ukkos' Fury is 2 hits, first is 2.0 fTP all the rest are 1.0 fTP 80% STR and can critical.

Upheaval is 4 hits, first is 1.625 with moonshade and the rest 1.0, 80% VIT.

That -15% attack penalty only significantly impacts jobs that have low attack naturally and no way to boost it, like RUN and PLD. Jobs that have naturally high attack along with attack boosting abilities aren't really impacted by it. Berserk on WAR is +35% attack, Savagery Warcry is +11% attack and +700 TP bonus, Last Resort is +35% attack and Endark II is another ~100 attack.

Ragnarok only faded away because SE nerfed the *** out of RME's DMG when they originally updated them to 119. The new versions of these have their full DMG values restored which means Rag resumes it's place as the raw DPS machine it was previously. Since SC's mean more now, other options are a bit more competitive.
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By Bahamut.Lykinia 2016-02-20 13:50:35
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Asura.Saevel said: »

Now if we want to step outside of 2H there is still Fencer Savage Blade setups with a Tanmogayi +1 or the Reikiko which are utterly devastating. With gifts and moonshade WAR has over 1000TP Bonus for WS's like Savage, Mistral and Cloudsplitter. Hell I was doing silly damage using Judgement on a Club or Vorpal Blade with my Tanmogayi +1. WAR really is a job with a multitude of options and ways to kill stuff, each with it's own Pro / Con. It's one of the reasons I love it so much.

Real talk right there. You can even Break out your Blurred Dagger and weaponskill Evisceration in full Argosy or Lustratio when you need piercing and its just as nasty as Vorpal Blade can be. Warrior's weapon versatility is what makes this job so fun to play.
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By Arcto 2016-02-20 13:57:12
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50% Occasionally triple damage far surpasses 13% on relics. So...saying that relic has what empy had permanently isnt really true. Also. Triple damage procs on multihit rounds too so it carries more weight.
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By maldini 2016-02-20 14:28:46
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Asura.Saevel said: »
Shiva.Flowen said: »
I don't doubt rag has amazing potential, but I still find you need to have some decent buffs to get steady numbers on reso. If we compare the relic options, rag has the serious crit rate going for it, but will bravura be that far behind when Eva/def down is considered?


Yes.

The only RME that competes with Rag is Conq due to it's enhanced berserk effect and AM3 procing on WS's. Rag's weakness is GS having poorer SC options then GAXE. Doing a five step double light on GAXE will put out more total damage then doing the same on GS or spamming WS's, provided the content isn't resistant to SC's.

You really need to understand the relative difference in power of these WS's.

Resolution 5 hit, copies fTP and damage varies with TP. Each hit will be 1.11 fTP with moonshade + belt + gorget for 5.5 fTP with 85% STR and -15% attack. Resolution gets extra fTP from DA procs and WAR happens to have a ridiculous amount of DA.

Ukkos' Fury is 2 hits, first is 2.0 fTP all the rest are 1.0 fTP 80% STR and can critical.

Upheaval is 4 hits, first is 1.625 with moonshade and the rest 1.0, 80% VIT.

That -15% attack penalty only significantly impacts jobs that have low attack naturally and no way to boost it, like RUN and PLD. Jobs that have naturally high attack along with attack boosting abilities aren't really impacted by it. Berserk on WAR is +35% attack, Savagery Warcry is +11% attack and +700 TP bonus, Last Resort is +35% attack and Endark II is another ~100 attack.

Ragnarok only faded away because SE nerfed the *** out of RME's DMG when they originally updated them to 119. The new versions of these have their full DMG values restored which means Rag resumes it's place as the raw DPS machine it was previously. Since SC's mean more now, other options are a bit more competitive.

would just like to add, Reso MS is a thing again.
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By Bahamut.Soraishin 2016-02-20 15:07:54
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I'd like to v3 my Kikoku if my server would ... work.
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By Lakshmi.Tummie 2016-02-20 15:22:07
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Arcto said: »
50% Occasionally triple damage far surpasses 13% on relics. So...saying that relic has what empy had permanently isnt really true. Also. Triple damage procs on multihit rounds too so it carries more weight.

Empy aftermaths on the 121 weapons have the same scale as before. The only difference is the durations are double what they used to be for each level. When comparing relics and emps extra damage the main difference is that relics have the hidden damage full time at 13% whereas emps you need to refresh the 30% proc rate aftermath which now is incredibly easy with the 1 min duration at lv1
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By Lakshmi.Byrth 2016-02-20 16:11:31
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As mentioned in the quoted post, the other difference is that the relics can only proc on the first swing of an attack round, while empyreans can proc on any swing with the weapon.
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By Shiva.Flowen 2016-02-20 16:20:36
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Asura.Saevel said: »
Shiva.Flowen said: »
I don't doubt rag has amazing potential, but I still find you need to have some decent buffs to get steady numbers on reso. If we compare the relic options, rag has the serious crit rate going for it, but will bravura be that far behind when Eva/def down is considered?


Yes.

The only RME that competes with Rag is Conq due to it's enhanced berserk effect and AM3 procing on WS's. Rag's weakness is GS having poorer SC options then GAXE. Doing a five step double light on GAXE will put out more total damage then doing the same on GS or spamming WS's, provided the content isn't resistant to SC's.

You really need to understand the relative difference in power of these WS's.

Resolution 5 hit, copies fTP and damage varies with TP. Each hit will be 1.11 fTP with moonshade + belt + gorget for 5.5 fTP with 85% STR and -15% attack. Resolution gets extra fTP from DA procs and WAR happens to have a ridiculous amount of DA.

Ukkos' Fury is 2 hits, first is 2.0 fTP all the rest are 1.0 fTP 80% STR and can critical.

Upheaval is 4 hits, first is 1.625 with moonshade and the rest 1.0, 80% VIT.

That -15% attack penalty only significantly impacts jobs that have low attack naturally and no way to boost it, like RUN and PLD. Jobs that have naturally high attack along with attack boosting abilities aren't really impacted by it. Berserk on WAR is +35% attack, Savagery Warcry is +11% attack and +700 TP bonus, Last Resort is +35% attack and Endark II is another ~100 attack.

Ragnarok only faded away because SE nerfed the *** out of RME's DMG when they originally updated them to 119. The new versions of these have their full DMG values restored which means Rag resumes it's place as the raw DPS machine it was previously. Since SC's mean more now, other options are a bit more competitive.

Here here, I'm well aware how much better reso is on paper, but with some content being extremely difficult to cap acc/att these days I was pondering whether eva/def down would add more than you think. Relying on 5 hits landing when acc is under cap on top of an attack penalty will hurt your dmg significantly.

Then again, using a GA instead of a GS is hurting your dmg.. I guess rag is back to its former glory, which excites me! I do think bravura stands as an incredibly useful weapon in the current game though, it helps keep war alive, hitting reliably and making skillchains for mages to mb.

Does anyone know if relic aftermaths got their duration extended?
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By Asura.Floppyseconds 2016-02-20 16:22:28
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Shiva.Flowen said: »
Asura.Saevel said: »
Shiva.Flowen said: »
I don't doubt rag has amazing potential, but I still find you need to have some decent buffs to get steady numbers on reso. If we compare the relic options, rag has the serious crit rate going for it, but will bravura be that far behind when Eva/def down is considered?


Yes.

The only RME that competes with Rag is Conq due to it's enhanced berserk effect and AM3 procing on WS's. Rag's weakness is GS having poorer SC options then GAXE. Doing a five step double light on GAXE will put out more total damage then doing the same on GS or spamming WS's, provided the content isn't resistant to SC's.

You really need to understand the relative difference in power of these WS's.

Resolution 5 hit, copies fTP and damage varies with TP. Each hit will be 1.11 fTP with moonshade + belt + gorget for 5.5 fTP with 85% STR and -15% attack. Resolution gets extra fTP from DA procs and WAR happens to have a ridiculous amount of DA.

Ukkos' Fury is 2 hits, first is 2.0 fTP all the rest are 1.0 fTP 80% STR and can critical.

Upheaval is 4 hits, first is 1.625 with moonshade and the rest 1.0, 80% VIT.

That -15% attack penalty only significantly impacts jobs that have low attack naturally and no way to boost it, like RUN and PLD. Jobs that have naturally high attack along with attack boosting abilities aren't really impacted by it. Berserk on WAR is +35% attack, Savagery Warcry is +11% attack and +700 TP bonus, Last Resort is +35% attack and Endark II is another ~100 attack.

Ragnarok only faded away because SE nerfed the *** out of RME's DMG when they originally updated them to 119. The new versions of these have their full DMG values restored which means Rag resumes it's place as the raw DPS machine it was previously. Since SC's mean more now, other options are a bit more competitive.

Here here, I'm well aware how much better reso is on paper, but with some content being extremely difficult to cap acc/att these days I was pondering whether eva/def down would add more than you think. Relying on 5 hits landing when acc is under cap on top of an attack penalty will hurt your dmg significantly.

Then again, using a GA instead of a GS is hurting your dmg.. I guess rag is back to its former glory, which excites me! I do think bravura stands as an incredibly useful weapon in the current game though, it helps keep war alive, hitting reliably and making skillchains for mages to mb.

Does anyone know if relic aftermaths got their duration extended?

Yes, and apparently the time scales with TP and not just at intervals.
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By Lakshmi.Byrth 2016-02-20 16:27:22
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Unless they ninja buffed it, Metatron Torment's Defense Down effect has always had a really low proc rate. Bravura is still an interesting tanking weapon (particularly now that the AM duration is tripled), but it hasn't been at the top of the GA podium for damage since mythics were released.
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By Shiva.Flowen 2016-02-20 16:38:30
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Lakshmi.Tummie said: »
Arcto said: »
50% Occasionally triple damage far surpasses 13% on relics. So...saying that relic has what empy had permanently isnt really true. Also. Triple damage procs on multihit rounds too so it carries more weight.

Empy aftermaths on the 121 weapons have the same scale as before. The only difference is the durations are double what they used to be for each level. When comparing relics and emps extra damage the main difference is that relics have the hidden damage full time at 13% whereas emps you need to refresh the 30% proc rate aftermath which now is incredibly easy with the 1 min duration at lv1

Who said relic proc was comparable...?

Relic proc IS always active, however for a job that has so much multistrikes teamed with the fact it can only proc on the first hit, the impact is mediocre - It adds up to about a 10% increase in tp damage.

New empys - triple dmg 50% of the time which can proc on any hit (AM3 which is now 3 minutes long so why wouldnt you full time?) is a 100% increase in tp damage. War is a job which relies heavily on it's tp damage (40-45:60-55). I'm really interested in ukon because of this, but we know conq has always beaten it..
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By Shiva.Flowen 2016-02-20 16:45:54
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Lakshmi.Byrth said: »
Unless they ninja buffed it, Metatron Torment's Defense Down effect has always had a really low proc rate. Bravura is still an interesting tanking weapon (particularly now that the AM duration is tripled), but it hasn't been at the top of the GA podium for damage since mythics were released.

Hmm I thought mag skill addition made it more reliable? Yeah it was never gonna win for damage, but I was wondering how close it was to other options damage wise whilst bringing its utility to the table.
I'm pretty sure I've read some of your mathematical testing on weapons before.. would be great to see some for the 119IIIs!
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By Arcto 2016-02-20 16:58:12
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Shiva.Flowen said: »
Lakshmi.Tummie said: »
Arcto said: »
50% Occasionally triple damage far surpasses 13% on relics. So...saying that relic has what empy had permanently isnt really true. Also. Triple damage procs on multihit rounds too so it carries more weight.

Empy aftermaths on the 121 weapons have the same scale as before. The only difference is the durations are double what they used to be for each level. When comparing relics and emps extra damage the main difference is that relics have the hidden damage full time at 13% whereas emps you need to refresh the 30% proc rate aftermath which now is incredibly easy with the 1 min duration at lv1

Who said relic proc was comparable...?

Relic proc IS always active, however for a job that has so much multistrikes teamed with the fact it can only proc on the first hit, the impact is mediocre - It adds up to about a 10% increase in tp damage.

New empys - triple dmg 50% of the time which can proc on any hit (AM3 which is now 3 minutes long so why wouldnt you full time?) is a 100% increase in tp damage. War is a job which relies heavily on it's tp damage (40-45:60-55). I'm really interested in ukon because of this, but we know conq has always beaten it..

Cory said it in a post above.

Edited: His context in post: For main 2handed weapons though... Empys kinda suck. Lowest base damage (coupled with most obnoxious to make), no linked WS bonus... AM that just makes them have the hidden effect of Relics which have that 100% of the time... AM that doesn't proc on WSs...
And then there's the lower acc on top of all of that?
Yeah. Empys are not good main hand weapons.
(And for things like GK or polearm, the Aeonics should prove better than even the relics. Especially polearm. Stardiver double light spam? <<Yes please.>>)
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By Shiva.Flowen 2016-02-20 17:15:07
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Arcto said: »
Shiva.Flowen said: »
Lakshmi.Tummie said: »
Arcto said: »
50% Occasionally triple damage far surpasses 13% on relics. So...saying that relic has what empy had permanently isnt really true. Also. Triple damage procs on multihit rounds too so it carries more weight.

Empy aftermaths on the 121 weapons have the same scale as before. The only difference is the durations are double what they used to be for each level. When comparing relics and emps extra damage the main difference is that relics have the hidden damage full time at 13% whereas emps you need to refresh the 30% proc rate aftermath which now is incredibly easy with the 1 min duration at lv1

Who said relic proc was comparable...?

Relic proc IS always active, however for a job that has so much multistrikes teamed with the fact it can only proc on the first hit, the impact is mediocre - It adds up to about a 10% increase in tp damage.

New empys - triple dmg 50% of the time which can proc on any hit (AM3 which is now 3 minutes long so why wouldnt you full time?) is a 100% increase in tp damage. War is a job which relies heavily on it's tp damage (40-45:60-55). I'm really interested in ukon because of this, but we know conq has always beaten it..

Cory said it in a post above.

Edited: His context in post: For main 2handed weapons though... Empys kinda suck. Lowest base damage (coupled with most obnoxious to make), no linked WS bonus... AM that just makes them have the hidden effect of Relics which have that 100% of the time... AM that doesn't proc on WSs...
And then there's the lower acc on top of all of that?
Yeah. Empys are not good main hand weapons.
(And for things like GK or polearm, the Aeonics should prove better than even the relics. Especially polearm. Stardiver double light spam? <<Yes please.>>)

Lol so he did. This is a huge oversite, triple damage is a massive deal for a 2 hander, not to mention the considerably higher proc rate compared to relic. What emp doesn't have is acc, an am that includes ws and any buffs to ws or ja, sadly.
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By Arcto 2016-02-20 17:17:41
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It is indeed fun getting charmed at Quetz with AM up and jejjin people for 2k a hit.. Lights out!
 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2016-02-21 00:12:02
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Shiva.Flowen said: »
Lol so he did. This is a huge oversite, triple damage is a massive deal for a 2 hander, not to mention the considerably higher proc rate compared to relic. What emp doesn't have is acc, an am that includes ws and any buffs to ws or ja, sadly.

Not really, at least for WAR. WS damage is going to rule the day and Empy AM does nothing for WS's.

On that note, Rag III is insane, broken level insane. Lots of hits, lots of crits, lots of big WS numbers. It's the pre-Ilevel Rag we all knew.
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By maldini 2016-02-26 07:36:52
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Haven't used a spreadsheet, but intuition/experience lead me to believe Verethragnas will ***on Glaz now.
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By Arcto 2016-02-26 07:51:05
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I was still under the impression Vere sucked due to only main fist being the ODD/ODT damage and not every punch. When Mote realized that and tested it I remember he was pretty shocked and bummed out.
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By Yandaime 2016-02-26 08:39:04
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Arcto said: »
I was still under the impression Vere sucked due to only main fist being the ODD/ODT damage and not every punch. When Mote realized that and tested it I remember he was pretty shocked and bummed out.


This is true. However, Vere is now Triple Damage so that could put it closer to the market or even push it ahead of Glanz. Spreadsheet verification would be required but I imagine the gap is closer thanot it was
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By Bismarck.Squah 2016-02-26 08:45:23
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Glanz AM can only proc once per round, just like Vere. Glanz is 2-3, Vere is guaranteed triple. You lose some TP gain but gain some damage. And, of course, gain fifty STR to boost the 80% STR VSmite wsc.
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By maldini 2016-02-26 08:56:06
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Glanz had the advantage previously in tp phase.
As others have just stated:
The triple dmg from vere will be closing the difference between the two, with Glaz possibly still being slightly ahead. However, Factoring VS, I see Vere pulling ahead, significantly.

so speculation is basically:
-Proc of 2-3 attacks =/= 100% triple dmg proc.
-VS > AF
-AM dependant on VS > AM dependant on AF
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