The Last Dance II: The Show Must Go On

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The Last Dance II: The Show Must Go On
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 Carbuncle.Skudo
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By Carbuncle.Skudo 2014-12-25 23:42:23
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Node 209
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 Lakshmi.Byrth
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By Lakshmi.Byrth 2014-12-25 23:43:00
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/praise 5eva

I haven't read it, but it's probably good.
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 Carbuncle.Skudo
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By Carbuncle.Skudo 2014-12-25 23:47:19
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Happy (belated) holidays, everyone!

This ia a rather rough version of the (updated) DNC guide. I personally wish I had had more time for it up to now, but I hope you guys still like it enough to drop some feedback on it, so we can improve this thing together.

I know a lot of things need more work, but I really didn't want to wait until I thought it's perfect. I'd rather share it with you like this for feedback etc.

Now that holidays are almost over, I should have a lot of time to work on this during the next week, before New Year's Eve. Until then, I unfortunately can't really work on it, except for really necessary fixes, as in getting rid of major ***. We don't want to spread bad things, do we? ;-D

Cheers!

/edit: Now I'm gonna get wasted. I've been way too antisocial for the last few days, because I totally wanted to release this on 2014-12-25. ;-D
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 Sylph.Oraen
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By Sylph.Oraen 2014-12-25 23:54:41
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It's a Christmas miracle! But seriously, thanks for the updated guide. Having an up-to-date and maintained guide will be wonderful for players attempting to get into the job.
 Bahamut.Flareon
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By Bahamut.Flareon 2014-12-26 00:52:04
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Thanks for the great guide! I'm still failing to understand how Quiahuiz Trousers with STR aug can be better than Vanir Boots for DEX based WSs tho...
 Quetzalcoatl.Valli
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By Quetzalcoatl.Valli 2014-12-26 01:57:34
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Carbuncle.Skudo said: »
seeing how Dancer is not exactly a bandwagoned job. Thank you, Samurais, Blue Mages and Thieves.

That was a *** thing to add to the guide, just sayin.
 Leviathan.Kaparu
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By Leviathan.Kaparu 2014-12-26 02:19:44
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If you personally identify with a job, perhaps.

But in that case I'd be more concerned with the victims grasp on reality than their delicate sensibilities.
 Valefor.Prothescar
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By Valefor.Prothescar 2014-12-26 02:34:12
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BLU's been a bandwagon job since abyssea (maybe even before then, don't remember much ToAU era job politics). Totally over it by now
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 Asura.Calatilla
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By Asura.Calatilla 2014-12-26 06:26:48
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Bahamut.Flareon said: »
Thanks for the great guide! I'm still failing to understand how Quiahuiz Trousers with STR aug can be better than Vanir Boots for DEX based WSs tho...
Why not just wear both
 Lakshmi.Byrth
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By Lakshmi.Byrth 2014-12-26 16:11:49
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Here is some more info on Stutter Step:
http://www.bg-wiki.com/bg/Talk:Stutter_Step
 Valefor.Sehachan
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By Valefor.Sehachan 2014-12-26 16:26:09
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Bahamut.Flareon said: »
Thanks for the great guide! I'm still failing to understand how Quiahuiz Trousers with STR aug can be better than Vanir Boots for DEX based WSs tho...
Thankfully, pants and shoes can be worn together!
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 Siren.Kyte
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By Siren.Kyte 2014-12-26 17:25:05
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Regardless though, Vanir are better than Qaaxo C.
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By mortontony1 2014-12-26 17:28:19
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Haven't touched dnc in a while, this guide looks great though! Curious though, am I the only one that can't stand /sam? Maybe i just don't see the benefits others do, but it just irks me.
 Cerberus.Doctorugh
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By Cerberus.Doctorugh 2014-12-26 20:06:41
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I would gather that /Cor is a better option than /sam ,esp if sam is in party (you'd be average around +15stp for all members instead of just your self), And Chaos Roll in presence of a DRK is going to give about +14% to all members on average.

If you are going full attack (saber dance), the DA bonus from /war is irrelevant. and +14% att for yourself (fulltime instead of 25% att/60% of the time) and all party members makes a half decent case for that rare occasion a DRK is in party.
 Lakshmi.Byrth
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By Lakshmi.Byrth 2014-12-26 20:37:53
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Real talk though, sub job contribution to utility is pretty minor for our job. NIN should probably be the go-to sub for most content, particularly if you don't fully trust your support or just want to be nice to them.

I mean:
WAR - 25% Attack >3/5 of the time, 25 Accuracy >3/5 of the time, +7% Attack for your party >1/10 of the time, 10 Attack, and 10% DA when Saber Dance isn't up
SAM - 15 STP, Sekkanoki every 5 minutes, Meditate every 3 minutes, Third Eye every 60 seconds. If you don't need attack or Acc and are riding Saber Dance, this is probably better than /WAR.
NIN - Near-total damage negation in a wide swath of content, including most AoEs. If you're doing something where the monsters hit hard, this is probably the right sub.
RUN - No shadows and you negate your samba, but there are times when rune damage and the associated resistance is useful. Swordplay is also pretty cool.
DRK - 22 Attack, 15% Attack >3/5 of the time, Souleater, Arcana Killer. I used to use this for Arrapago Salvage v2.
COR - 14% Attack when you have a DRK in the party if you're willing to *** around playing the stupid COR rolling minigame. I'd never use this.
WHM - Cast Haste on yourself!!!!!!! And Dia II!!!!!! You can finally have Reraise on DNC >^,^< - Again, I'd never use this.
BLM+RDM - You can get Magic Attack Bonus for totally awesome Aeolian Edges!!1!!!! I did used to sub RDM or SAM when I was doing AE cleaves in Abyssea. /BLM is for warp.
BLU - Cocoon makes me unvincible! I've never used this sub. Cocoon doesn't last long enough.
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 Bismarck.Speedyjim
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By Bismarck.Speedyjim 2014-12-26 21:25:51
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In the TP sets, what do TP 0/15/30/Cap mean?
 Sylph.Oraen
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By Sylph.Oraen 2014-12-26 21:36:02
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Bismarck.Speedyjim said: »
In the TP sets, what do TP 0/15/30/Cap mean?

Level of magic haste.
 
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 Bahamut.Flareon
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By Bahamut.Flareon 2014-12-26 21:52:55
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Valefor.Sehachan said: »
Bahamut.Flareon said: »
Thanks for the great guide! I'm still failing to understand how Quiahuiz Trousers with STR aug can be better than Vanir Boots for DEX based WSs tho...
Thankfully, pants and shoes can be worn together!

I was kinda dozing when i said that... i meant Qaaxo Feet in comparison with Vanir Boots... Kyte got what i meant...
 Bismarck.Speedyjim
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By Bismarck.Speedyjim 2014-12-26 22:52:24
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Sylph.Oraen said: »
Bismarck.Speedyjim said: »
In the TP sets, what do TP 0/15/30/Cap mean?

Level of magic haste.
Thanks!
 Valefor.Sapphire
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By Valefor.Sapphire 2014-12-27 00:07:21
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Lakshmi.Byrth said: »
Real talk though, sub job contribution to utility is pretty minor for our job. NIN should probably be the go-to sub for most content, particularly if you don't fully trust your support or just want to be nice to them.

I mean:
WAR - 25% Attack >3/5 of the time, 25 Accuracy >3/5 of the time, +7% Attack for your party >1/10 of the time, 10 Attack, and 10% DA when Saber Dance isn't up
SAM - 15 STP, Sekkanoki every 5 minutes, Meditate every 3 minutes, Third Eye every 60 seconds. If you don't need attack or Acc and are riding Saber Dance, this is probably better than /WAR.
NIN - Near-total damage negation in a wide swath of content, including most AoEs. If you're doing something where the monsters hit hard, this is probably the right sub.
RUN - No shadows and you negate your samba, but there are times when rune damage and the associated resistance is useful. Swordplay is also pretty cool.
DRK - 22 Attack, 15% Attack >3/5 of the time, Souleater, Arcana Killer. I used to use this for Arrapago Salvage v2.
COR - 14% Attack when you have a DRK in the party if you're willing to *** around playing the stupid COR rolling minigame. I'd never use this.
WHM - Cast Haste on yourself!!!!!!! And Dia II!!!!!! You can finally have Reraise on DNC >^,^< - Again, I'd never use this.
BLM+RDM - You can get Magic Attack Bonus for totally awesome Aeolian Edges!!1!!!! I did used to sub RDM or SAM when I was doing AE cleaves in Abyssea. /BLM is for warp.
BLU - Cocoon makes me unvincible! I've never used this sub. Cocoon doesn't last long enough.
To add onto this is my subjob choice based on what content I have brought my dnc to regularly:

WAR
*Default sub for Incursion+pop NMs (diremite,hippogriff,etc) + unity NMs.
For HTBCs, I used /war a lot of Ouryu II, expect to be terror locked often which will ruin your sabredance riding and ws spamming plans. Alternate defender/fandance if you get full roar dispelled as a stopgap measure until you get rebuffed.

SAM
Sekkanoki easymode solo double darkness combined with reverse flourish. Or add another sc step before you get to darkness if someone else is closing on it.
This is mainly a novelty sub for me for things I could go /war to since maxbuffed I can self sc just by fast tping with terpaderp AM3+OaT atoyac.

NIN
Best subjob for AAs+DM, Shadowlord, Headwind, Celestial Nexus, Tenzen. Highly recommend making a fastcast utsu set!

RUN
my subjob of choice for high tier avatar battles.
Flash for post hate reset, keep runes up, rotate vallation+pflug.
I do avatars with (pld or run)+dnc+thf frontline and get my share of tanky time and incoming magic damage is heavy on this so I go with this sub.
*Sabredance with runes up cause you can't samba is weird, but works.
*only decent subjob for Emperor arthro unity NM if you insist on coming dnc. Still bring a pld to this NM to cover your unavoidable hundredfists punishment.
*Best subjob for wildskeeper reives, tchakka is my favorite WKR to solo/lowman with /run.
*Ethereal earring+flume belt+1 best two pieces to integrate into a /run hybrid set (or any /mage set) in any scenario of sustained tanking and mp use.

WHM
Used this for salvage, mainly for haste.
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By Enuyasha 2014-12-27 00:40:32
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Good luck with the guide :)
 Bahamut.Flareon
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By Bahamut.Flareon 2014-12-30 07:18:34
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I'd Like to know which parameters you use to determine Haste % for each of the "phases": 15, 30 and Cap.

I work with only two sets, haste 0 and Haste Cap (2x march + haste + Samba or march + haste + embrava), so i'd like to know what buffs to declare for the intermediary sets.
 Asura.Sechs
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By Asura.Sechs 2014-12-30 09:01:38
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Thanks to Skudo for all of this work. Some random questions and possible suggestions:


Toetapper Mantle
Have you calculated how much +WS damage does it need to be better than other options in WS slot?


Windbuffet Belt
In one of your set you accidentally put NQ instead of HQ


Prosilio Belt +1
I found out that in some circumstances this is better than other options, on par/better than Wanion too, for non forcedcrit Rudras. Of course it's never an option for Pyrrhic/Evis.


Tati Earring/+1/Kuwunga Earring
You seem to ignore these.
Kuwunga is an excellent option for all WSs if you have madrigal up.
Tati Earring +1 might be a bit too expensive (and hard to find) to justify the small difference, but unless you're attack capped (or force critting) it's better than 3DEX earring, I seem to recall it being better even than +4DEX under those circumstances. Please test again!


Nilas Gloves
Sidegradeish option, but I feel it might deserve some love? "Cheaper" than Nomkapha, and if your servers doesn't have enough people doing WoE and you're sick of doing it yourself, it might be a pretty valid alternative, even if possibly slightly inferior.


Brutal/Suppa vs Heart/Dudge
I keep getting different results under different circumstances/buffs. Atm I only use Heart/Dudge (in the sets where I can benefit from DW).
Have you thoroughfully tested this? Your opinion?


Felistris Mask vs Highwing
Is Highwing Helm always the superior option?
 Cerberus.Doctorugh
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By Cerberus.Doctorugh 2014-12-30 15:49:41
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One interesting option I've been toying with in DNC/WAR and no offhand. With capped magic haste and samba you are very close to delay cap (.2125) Other things to consider: +200ftp helps rudras quite a bit and loss of offhand hit is barely noticeable. 5% crit and roughly 25% faster tp more than makes up for slight delay loss. And finally since no offhand att penalty, is another advantage. I don't have time to math it out, but seems like a valid option.....go go shield?
 Carbuncle.Skudo
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By Carbuncle.Skudo 2014-12-30 16:08:01
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Bahamut.Flareon said: »
I'd Like to know which parameters you use to determine Haste % for each of the "phases": 15, 30 and Cap.

15% is a Haste I spell onry, e. g. when you're with a WHM and you can't summon any NPCs.

30% realistically is just Haste II, because whenever you might have a Haste bubble from GEO, there will be Haste to cap you. This level most often occurs when you're out there with your Trust NPCs and your BRDs decide it's better to sing Paeon or Ballad instead of Marches, leaving you with just Haste II from Koru-Moru.

The most common ways to cap magic Haste are March 2x + Haste, Indi-Haste (or Geo-Haste) + Haste, and Victory March + Haste II (from RDM or SMN). "Cap" here however means that you're dual wielding and you have 37%+ magic Haste, so the most notable addition to the scenarios above is Haste II + Victory March from your Trust NPC, which is just ~39.6% Haste, but still enough to cap delay reduction for you.
 Bahamut.Shirai
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By Bahamut.Shirai 2014-12-30 16:32:45
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Skudo, send me your DNC gearswap!
 Carbuncle.Skudo
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By Carbuncle.Skudo 2014-12-30 16:36:54
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Asura.Sechs said: »
Toetapper Mantle
Have you calculated how much +WS damage does it need to be better than other options in WS slot?

Assuming Izhiikoh and totally disregarding additional hits, Toetapper Mantle vs Kayapa Cape:

Quote:
(108 + 20 + 0.8 * DEX) * fTP * pDIF * WSD >= (108 + 20 + 0.8 * (DEX + 8)) * fTP * pDIF
(128 + 0.8 * DEX) * WSD >= (134.4 + 0.8 * DEX)
WSD >= (134.4 + 0.8 * DEX) / (128 + 0.8 * DEX)

At 300 DEX, that's WSD >= 1.0174, which means that even at WSD+2%, you'll pull ahead already. 240 DEX is where WSD+2% and DEX+8 add an equal amount of damage. Realistically, it's more DEX, because of additional hits. But then, you probably have more than WSD+2% on your cape to begin with.

Math for Toetapper Mantle vs Vespid Mantle is similar:

Quote:
(108 + 20 + 0.8 * DEX) * fTP * (ATK / DEF) * WSD >= (108 + 20 + 0.8 * DEX) * fTP * ((ATK + 35) / DEF)
WSD * ATK / DEF >= (ATK + 35) / DEF
WSD * ATK >= ATK + 35
WSD >= 1 + 35 / ATK

At 1000 ATK, you will need WSD+4% to pull ahead on the first hit. I'm too lazy for additional hits right now. ;-p

tl;dr: A Toetapper Mantle with WSD+5% almost certainly is the best thing to use for Rudra's Storm. On the low end of buffs or gear, some options like Kayapa Cape or Vespid Mantle can pull ahead, if your Toetapper Mantle has less than WSD+5%.

Asura.Sechs said: »
Prosilio Belt +1
I found out that in some circumstances this is better than other options, on par/better than Wanion too, for non forcedcrit Rudras. Of course it's never an option for Pyrrhic/Evis.

I can see that happen, if you lack a lot of ATK, which can happen in low-buff situations. I will distinguish between "high attack" and "low attack" scenarios in the near future; it's on the todo list already.

Asura.Sechs said: »
Tati Earring/+1/Kuwunga Earring
You seem to ignore these.
Kuwunga is an excellent option for all WSs if you have madrigal up.
Tati Earring +1 might be a bit too expensive (and hard to find) to justify the small difference, but unless you're attack capped (or force critting) it's better than 3DEX earring, I seem to recall it being better even than +4DEX under those circumstances. Please test again!

Kuwunga Earring will be part of the high attack, low attack update. Under many circumstances, Kuwunga Earring is ahead, if Madrigal is up. In my world however, if you have Madrigal, chances are you have a combination of Berserk/Chaos/Fury/Frailty, too, which has a heavy impact on the effect of Kuwunga's ATK+17.

Asura.Sechs said: »
Nilas Gloves
Sidegradeish option, but I feel it might deserve some love? "Cheaper" than Nomkapha, and if your servers doesn't have enough people doing WoE and you're sick of doing it yourself, it might be a pretty valid alternative, even if possibly slightly inferior.

I have started making "alternative" gear sets, listing partial downgrades/sidegrades to the existing gear sets. Nilas Gloves will be there as a legit, albeit slightly worse, alternative for Nomkahpa Mittens +1.

Asura.Sechs said: »
Brutal/Suppa vs Heart/Dudge
I keep getting different results under different circumstances/buffs. Atm I only use Heart/Dudge (in the sets where I can benefit from DW).
Have you thoroughfully tested this? Your opinion?

The idea is that for Brutal + Suppanomimi to be better, the lack of DW+2 has to have little to no effect, which happens when using Dudgeon + Heartseeker would overshoot delay reduction.

This swap is the first thing that should happen when you "overcap" delay reduction, followed by Charis Necklace => Asperity Necklace.

Asura.Sechs said: »
Felistris Mask vs Highwing
Is Highwing Helm always the superior option?

No. There will be spots where Felistris Mask will be better, primarily when you get closer to the fodder end of mobs, which is where that extra ATK (and fSTR+1) will have less or no effect at all.

On really weak fodder mobs, chances are Iuitl Headgear +1 with DA+2 would be better though. If you can even bother with random augments, that is...
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By wormfeeder 2014-12-30 16:48:20
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Skudo are you using food to get 1000 attack, or are you using the 1000 as n easy number to formulate from.
 Lakshmi.Byrth
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By Lakshmi.Byrth 2014-12-30 16:51:37
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1000 is about right for WSs. My Pyrrhic Kleos builds give me 996, 1013, or 970 Attack.
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