Critical Analysis: Reworking The 5-hit

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Critical analysis: reworking the 5-hit
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 Bahamut.Zellc
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By Bahamut.Zellc 2011-06-05 01:26:12
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in light of the new update, i figured i should make a few changes to my five hit. going for looking to add zanshin and change around some gear to allow more attack.

current 5 hit: obvious upgrade is dusk gloves but i gave up for the time being. i also notice the ah price on them dropping also.


after update 5 hit: maybe the zanshin stuff will be really cool, so i thought to add as much as i had sitting in my inventories and came up with this. oh and we are getting another 5 stp via job trait so i could minus one stp gear slot.


now this is only in terms of tp gain. ws isnt under consideration. also when i zoom in on one thing like lets say zanshin, i tend to get close minded. that being said, id like to know what any other sams has been thinking up with the info about the update!
 Fenrir.Gradd
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By Fenrir.Gradd 2011-06-05 01:33:19
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PW GK (100% Zanshin Proc) might end up being something cool if they end up augmenting it and giving SAM another decently strong WS to use.
 Bahamut.Zellc
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By Bahamut.Zellc 2011-06-05 01:37:34
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in combo with ikishoten i bet that would be amazing. almost amazing enough for them to nerf. its all speculation at this point but the pw gk sounds super cool if said sam doesnt have a masa.
 Valefor.Slipispsycho
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By Valefor.Slipispsycho 2011-06-05 01:47:07
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Asura.Xeth said:
Bringing back the 3-hit Zanshin build!
I think you're onto something.
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 Bahamut.Zellc
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By Bahamut.Zellc 2011-06-05 01:50:15
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Asura.Xeth said:
Bringing back the 3-hit Zanshin build!

Hasso
Hasso will now occasionally trigger Zanshin even after landing a normal attack.
Seigan
The likelihood that Seigan will cause Third Eye to counter an anticipated attack will be augmented with a bonus based upon the player's Zanshin attack rate.

when i made this post i wansnt trying to make a nabis thread about zanshin. based off what SE has said, it appears that they would like to incorporate zanshin in more situations rather than a negative accuracy situation. so in this case you would not be counting on a miss to happen, we would be adding to the effect of zanshin to make it proc more ofter. when thought about it this way it would be like wearing double attack or triple attack gear.
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 Bahamut.Zellc
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By Bahamut.Zellc 2011-06-05 01:51:13
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Valefor.Slipispsycho said:
Asura.Xeth said:
Bringing back the 3-hit Zanshin build!
I think you're onto something.

im sorry i disagree. :/
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 Bismarck.Azagthothe
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By Bismarck.Azagthothe 2011-06-05 02:12:39
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I don't see why people are assuming that Zanshin rate will have any effect on whether Zanshin will triggering after a normal attack lands; it seems by the way they worded it that it'll probably be a static rate.
 Cerberus.Lasareth
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By Cerberus.Lasareth 2011-06-05 02:16:33
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I think anything that is "occasional" is too inconsistent to center a build around, especially when it directly affects the number of hits your build becomes.

Your set changes from 24(assuming dusk+1) haste to 22, from 56 stp to 51 (which may/probably will bump you out of a consistent 5 hit depending on your ws set), in order to add two pieces of Zanshin gear? Not worth it imo.

The best this update will do is give us extra hits and more TP to Fudo with in my opinion. Nothing game breaking. I think the only reason they're changing it is because our set bonus was crap before compared to a lot of others.
 Bahamut.Icelord
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By Bahamut.Icelord 2011-06-05 02:18:39
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 Bahamut.Attribute
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By Bahamut.Attribute 2011-06-05 02:35:07
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Even with its all trash.. Ukon so overpowers Masa it makes it a toddler rattler! The Masa SAM in my LS is doing Ukon now. He has been put to shame. But by all means keep trying.
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 Carbuncle.Virtuosus
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By Carbuncle.Virtuosus 2011-06-05 02:44:03
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Bahamut.Attribute said:
Even with its all trash.. Ukon so overpowers Masa it makes it a toddler rattler! The Masa SAM in my LS is doing Ukon now. He has been put to shame. But by all means keep trying.

That's nice and all, but man WAR AF3 is ugly as ***.
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 Bahamut.Attribute
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By Bahamut.Attribute 2011-06-05 02:48:34
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Carbuncle.Virtuosus said:
Bahamut.Attribute said:
Even with its all trash.. Ukon so overpowers Masa it makes it a toddler rattler! The Masa SAM in my LS is doing Ukon now. He has been put to shame. But by all means keep trying.

That's nice and all, but man WAR AF3 is ugly as ***.

You are 100% correct... DATs though man. But I am lazy so I haven't changed any. I really should work on that soon.
 Ifrit.Eikechi
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By Ifrit.Eikechi 2011-06-05 02:53:16
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I see a lot of people trashing Masa, and saying Ukon is like the best weapon ever.... While that's true, the Ukon is super strong, we can't ALL play warrior 24/7 lol.... Let the Masa sam's have their fun... what is the point of bashing somebody for playing a job they find FUN?
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 Bahamut.Attribute
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By Bahamut.Attribute 2011-06-05 03:05:22
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This is not true at all. WAR is simple yes but alot of players (Do I really need to say this??) are *** idiots. Gear/etc is just horrible.. I have seen 1-2 WARS WSing w/ Ukon in *** Assault Jerkins. But thats not the main point. If I gave my account w/ full gears and macros away that doesn't mean that player can fully use its potential. Everyone plays differently and knows when and where to use what JAs. Its all in how you play WAR even more so over gear. Its also majorly effected by your healer or healers. IMO WAR HAS to have STP (Store TP), TP, WS (for all WS separately), MDEF and PDT macros. According the the sub even Zanshin and or counter gears. YES I said counter. But an excellent WAR and a I AFK meleeing and WS whenever WAR are almost 2 different jobs. You could say the same for ANY job.
 Bahamut.Attribute
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By Bahamut.Attribute 2011-06-05 03:06:31
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Totally ignore that i'm drunk and misread and thought you said anyone could play WAR. But yes thats true also. I really want to make a dagger for my THF.
 Fenrir.Crystenne
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By Fenrir.Crystenne 2011-06-05 03:26:48
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Bahamut.Attribute said:
Even with its all trash.. Ukon so overpowers Masa it makes it a toddler rattler! The Masa SAM in my LS is doing Ukon now. He has been put to shame. But by all means keep trying.

And this has anything to do with a SAM 5 hit...how? These aren't the WAR forums, mate.

Yes, Ukon is better than Masamune, we all know, but not everyone gives a ***about Ukko's Fury.
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 Fenrir.Gradd
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By Fenrir.Gradd 2011-06-05 03:44:22
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I honestly think this is SE realizing their "Augments Zanshin ODD effect" from AF3 is virtually worthless at the moment(People gear to hit not to miss), and this is their way of making it stand out correcting their ***mistake.
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 Bismarck.Dracondria
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By Bismarck.Dracondria 2011-06-05 03:48:55
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Asura.Xeth said:
Fenrir.Crystenne said:
Yes, Ukon is better than Masamune, we all know, but not everyone gives a ***about Finland's Fury.
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 Phoenix.Kirana
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By Phoenix.Kirana 2011-06-05 03:55:45
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Quote:
The likelihood that Seigan will cause Third Eye to counter an anticipated attack will be augmented with a bonus based upon the player's Zanshin attack rate.

When I read this It sounds like nanatsusayanotachi will give you a 100% counter rate while using seigan+third eye.
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By javelinx 2011-06-05 03:56:08
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leave on your bullwhip belt for tp, the +5 from goading is putting you 5 stp OVER the 5 hit mark, but not giving you enough for partial tp on each hit, so it's a waste and a loss of haste...if you dont believe

35stp from trait
50 from head/body/neck/rings/ears/ammo/sub/legs/feet
-4 from ace's gloves
=81, which is the stp goal from 5 hit build on a 437 delay wpn

you honestly shouldn't have been wearing the tactical mantle previously as it wasn't providing you with enough stp to even get to 20.5% tp per swing.

I think the only real questions for well geared emp/relic sams is how high is the enhance rate from unkai sugemino, because atheling mantle is 3% DA that is tough to beat, if sugemino is something like 2% or greater and zanshin ends up being greater than DA (which it would if gear gave straight percentage gains on zanshin since full ikishoten merits gives you 35 tp per zanshin swing). Also, I personally was wearing bushinomimi instead of mimikazari before, but that will change with the update. Other than that, I use pole grip instead of rose, but I'm a relic sam so I get more stp per swing after a ws than emps do.

And on a final note, defensive of good sam's everywhere, If your ls masamune sam is being straight out-parsed for dot by a war, everytime, then they're not that good, sure ukon will put up huge ws's, and occasionally some crazy 5-7k ukko's on glavoid or something, but both jobs being fully buffed with food and equivelent atma's, a good relic or emp will hold its own against ukon wars. And for those that think Amano is outdated, please come find me lol I will put you masamume and ukon to shame in a fair parse. 5k tachi:kaiten do you need it?
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 Cerberus.Lasareth
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By Cerberus.Lasareth 2011-06-05 04:05:17
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javelinx said:
35stp from trait
50 from head/body/neck/rings/ears/ammo/sub/legs/feet
-4 from ace's gloves
=81, which is the stp goal from 5 hit build on a 437 delay wpn

...equals 20.0 TP per hit on a 437 delay weapon which is a 5 hit sure but becomes a 6 hit the moment you WS, unless you plan to WS in your TP gear. Am I missing something here?

We do mean 5 hits including WS right? A 5 hit is useless otherwise.

Also on your comment of ukon vs. masamune. You completely neglected the hugely significant ODD aftermath effect, which along with WAR AF3 set bonus is a pretty significant oversight.
 Cerberus.Wolfshadow
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By Cerberus.Wolfshadow 2011-06-05 04:20:12
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Cerberus.Lasareth said:
javelinx said:
35stp from trait
50 from head/body/neck/rings/ears/ammo/sub/legs/feet
-4 from ace's gloves
=81, which is the stp goal from 5 hit build on a 437 delay wpn

...equals 20.0 TP per hit on a 437 delay weapon which is a 5 hit sure but becomes a 6 hit the moment you WS, unless you plan to WS in your TP gear. Am I missing something here?

We do mean 5 hits including WS right? A 5 hit is useless otherwise.

Also on your comment of ukon vs. masamune. You completely neglected the hugely significant ODD aftermath effect, which along with WAR AF3 set bonus is a pretty significant oversight.
Dem maffs
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By javelinx 2011-06-05 04:35:33
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Cerberus.Lasareth said:
javelinx said:
35stp from trait
50 from head/body/neck/rings/ears/ammo/sub/legs/feet
-4 from ace's gloves
=81, which is the stp goal from 5 hit build on a 437 delay wpn

...equals 20.0 TP per hit on a 437 delay weapon which is a 5 hit sure but becomes a 6 hit the moment you WS, unless you plan to WS in your TP gear. Am I missing something here?

We do mean 5 hits including WS right? A 5 hit is useless otherwise.

Also on your comment of ukon vs. masamune. You completely neglected the hugely significant ODD aftermath effect, which along with WAR AF3 set bonus is a pretty significant oversight.

correct, equals 20tp per hit on a 437 delay wpn, whihc would make it a 6 hit when u ws IF you're outside of abyssea (no regain) as well as not tanking(tp gain from damage)...my original reply had all the real world math in it for number of tics of regain in 5 melee swings and 1 ws animation lol, kinda decided to let it go. plainly if you have 2tp/tic regain or greater on, then you have about 106% tp in 1 ws and 4 swings even with lower tp gain from ws, if you don't have regain on but are tanking a mob that is hitting you at least as fast as you are hitting it(as many higher nm's megas are immune or at least resistant to slow) then you have over 100% tp in 1 ws and 4 swings.

as far as odd and war +2's yes there is a diff there, but also realize that while a wars crits will be larger post ws, that a good sam "should" be ws'ing 33-50% more than a good war.
lets say a high def mob like glavoid:
ukko for 3k avg and 5-6k spike(barring wierd stoneskin thing being up)
and fudo for 2-3k avg and 4-5k spike

now add in normal a 1200 odd crit from ukon and a 9-1000 odd crit from masa(and granted the crits keep going, but they dont all hit for 1200+)

3k+1200=4200 for the war
2k+1000=3000 for the sam
sam hitting ws+1crit for 70%~ of what the war is

now factor in ws speed and it actually gets close to even when you parse a good sam vs a good war, hate will swap constantly(even on a mob that doesn't have wierd hate rules) 80-140(assuming the war is /sam, but not really taking into account the lower recast for sams, cus im tired) more tp every couple minutes, zanshin procs for 35 tp a swing (coming soon, enhanced zanshin, read:double attack with more tp per swing)
more skillchain damage by 12-37%. not saying that all masamunes will outparse a ukon, but masamune, used by someone with actual skill at this game, should be able to beat a ukon war some of the time, not most, not a little bit, but some, as there are realistic variables to every fight in the game.

edit:meant to change the 6-700 crit number to 1k for sam
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 Bahamut.Zellc
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By Bahamut.Zellc 2011-06-05 09:25:22
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i had fallen asleep, but i am glad to see where some ppl at least, have been going with the possibilities. i dont know where to start with the quotes cause so many interesting things were said lol.

i guess ill start with the whole stp thing for 5 hit. i build my 5 hit around an the actual amount of hits it takes to get that after a ws. not a big fan of factoring in regain.

as it has been said before, yes yes ukon is better. helped a friend 100% complete his so i got to see the numbers from ukkos tear mobs and nms apart. but this is a sam thread about sam tp. not a debate about which job with a cool weap is stronger.

Cerberus.Lasareth said:
I think anything that is "occasional" is too inconsistent to center a build around, especially when it directly affects the number of hits your build becomes.

Your set changes from 24(assuming dusk+1) haste to 22, from 56 stp to 51 (which may/probably will bump you out of a consistent 5 hit depending on your ws set), in order to add two pieces of Zanshin gear? Not worth it imo.

The best this update will do is give us extra hits and more TP to Fudo with in my opinion. Nothing game breaking. I think the only reason they're changing it is because our set bonus was crap before compared to a lot of others.

i see what you mean there. and i think i could compare it to double attack more readily if zanshin had a straight %. i think the fact that we dont know how much each piece adds makes this a bit harder.
yea i lost bullwhip cause i switched to ace's. 26% haste is really cool, but this is all for testing to see how zanshin is after update. cause if zanshin procs more often with more gear on without losing too much haste, we will be getting so much tp that that 2% haste might not even matter (assuming 5/5 ikishoten merits).

all in all this is just a after update test to see how awesome or not the new adjustment will be. keep rolling with the feed back, all this is great to read!
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By Odin.Dirtyfinger 2011-06-05 10:12:37
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I'll probably put some merits into Ikishoten but that's about it. I had hopes of swapping Tactical with Atheling with the STP gained from the trait, not meriting Zanshin.

But we'll see.
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By Pandemonium.Ironguy 2011-06-05 10:26:51
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enhancing zanshin equipment (otherwise known as pieces that increase the frequency of it going off) won't be worth going for over what's currently available, for the fact you either need the pieces for your five-hit (example rose strap vs katana strap), or alternatively because the increase from each specific piece is so miniscule compared to what's there already; the only piece/slot i really see it being debatable for would be unkai sugemino against atheling mantle during the tp phase, but even then i wouldn't be surprised if unkai sugemino was only 1% zanshin, making it obviously pale in comparison

that though is the five-hit perspective, when you could take this adjustment to six-hit's table as well here, which allows them to be a lot more open with increasing zanshin's rate, even going as far as to (*gasp*) easily drop store tp merits for zanshin merits, thanks to the sheer amount of store tp equipment they've implemented since abyssea

myself, i'm still bold on the five-hit route, even currently when it requires you to chop off a limb to support it (tactical mantle is disgusting), but we'll have to see from parses on zanshin's base rate of activation with hasso up after the update hits (isn't the 6th ;;;;;;) before anyone can truly say which is (or will be) the best

i haven't put the six-hit zanshin-emphasis build(s?) together (yet), but for now, assuming store tp v is five points,

tp (moonshade earring with atk/regain augments) - 20.4% return

masabro rosestrap empty thewbomblet
unkaikabuto+2 ganesha'smala moonshadeearring brutalearring
unkaidomaru+2 duskgloves+1 hoardring rajasring
unkaisugemino bullwhipbelt unkaihaidate+2 ace'sleggings

ws - 16.6% return (98.2% total without the regain included)

masabro rosestrap empty thewbomblet
varangianhelm lightgorget vulcan'spearl brutalearring
fazheluoroyalmail heafocmitts pyrosoulring rajasring
unkaisugemino beirbelt+1 hachiryuhaidate unkaisune-ate+2

is pretty much the best build; if you're lacking hachiryu haidate, swap thew bomblet and hoard ring during tp with white tathlum and strigoi ring (or mars' ring, or even keen ring), and weapon skill in unkai haidate +2

if you're lacking ganesha's mala and hachiryu haidate, tp in thew bomblet, unkai nodowa and strigoi/mars'/keen ring, weapon skill in unkai haidate +2

and then, if it's ten store tp instead of five,

tp (moonshade earring with atk/regain augments) - 20.3% return

masabro rosestrap empty whitetathlum
zelustiara ganesha'smala moonshadeearring brutalearring
unkaidomaru+2 duskgloves+1 hoardring rajasring
unkaisugemino bullwhipbelt unkaihaidate+2 ace'sleggings

ws - 17.2% return (98.4% total without the regain included)

masabro rosestrap empty thewbomblet
varangianhelm lightgorget vulcan'spearl brutalearring
fazheluoroyalmail heafocmitts pyrosoulring rajasring
unkaisugemino beirbelt+1 hachiryuhaidate unkaisune-ate+2

i would build item sets for those, but i can't, due to there being a limit on how many item sets you can create on your account :(

tl;dr: we'll at least be able to toss tactical mantle :DDDDDDDDDDDD
 Bahamut.Zellc
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By Bahamut.Zellc 2011-06-05 10:42:58
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Odin.Dirtyfinger said:
I'll probably put some merits into Ikishoten but that's about it. I had hopes of swapping Tactical with Atheling with the STP gained from the trait, not meriting Zanshin.

But we'll see.

i felt like the minus attack from tactical really hurt. that was the number one piece i wanted to subtract from the five hit when i learned about the addition to the trait. atheling is what i shall switch to if the zanshin adjustment is a butst.
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