Merit Choice Abilities?

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Merit Choice Abilities?
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 Caitsith.Linear
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By Caitsith.Linear 2010-05-13 12:23:32
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What?.. Son of a ***... Well, ***.

I'll edit my post then.
 Cerberus.Azumii
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By Cerberus.Azumii 2010-05-13 12:59:19
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lol okay guys so what your saying is Iki is better than Shiki? I mean personally Iki SOUNDS more reasonable, but on the other hand Shiki is more for like end game and dyna which i hardly ever do with my LS - so Iki sounds more useful in my case :/.
 Cerberus.Azumii
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By Cerberus.Azumii 2010-05-13 13:01:36
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Oh and another thing, how does Iki give you more WS damage btw? I thought it's supposed to give you more TP with every Zanshin attack you make o.O; or am i missing something lol ><
 Sylph.Tigerwoods
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By Sylph.Tigerwoods 2010-05-13 13:08:41
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increases ws frequency, so you ws more. Doesn't directly up the WS dmg that you produce, just the number of WS'. If your acc doesn't blow, this number will be very very very low
 Cerberus.Azumii
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By Cerberus.Azumii 2010-05-13 13:23:01
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ah yes i thought so haha! thanks.
 Valefor.Lluna
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By Valefor.Lluna 2010-05-13 13:40:57
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Sylph.Tigerwoods said:
Ikishoten sucks, really. w/ 5/5 merits, you get 15 extra tp. Let's say we have our standard 6hit of 16.7tp/swing. A miss /zanshin nets you 15 extra tp, 31.7 total 16.7 16.7 16.7 16.7 16.7 16.7 = 100.2 tp Now let's replace a connected hit w/ a zanshin hit 16.7 16.7 16.7 31.7 16.7 = 98.5 tp Guess what, you still need that 6th hit to ws. It hasn't done anything for you. You'd literally have to have shitty enough acc to get two zanshins on one trip to 100 tp and have both of those zanshin procs land for it to make a difference. And then you have polearm sam, 15 tp isn't going to drop you from a 5hit to a 4hit when you're already getting 20tp/hit and would need 25/hit to get a 4 hit.

GKT WS. Damage varies with TP. Ikishoten gives you more TP.
So yeah, you will end up doing MORE DMG if you have Ikishoten.
 Cerberus.Azumii
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By Cerberus.Azumii 2010-05-13 14:55:16
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Oh i see, yeah that makes more sense. Especially if you do like gekko at 200tp. Hmmm interesting. SO glad i made a post lol.
 Sylph.Tigerwoods
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By Sylph.Tigerwoods 2010-05-13 14:57:09
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Valefor.Lluna said:
Sylph.Tigerwoods said:
Ikishoten sucks, really. w/ 5/5 merits, you get 15 extra tp. Let's say we have our standard 6hit of 16.7tp/swing. A miss /zanshin nets you 15 extra tp, 31.7 total 16.7 16.7 16.7 16.7 16.7 16.7 = 100.2 tp Now let's replace a connected hit w/ a zanshin hit 16.7 16.7 16.7 31.7 16.7 = 98.5 tp Guess what, you still need that 6th hit to ws. It hasn't done anything for you. You'd literally have to have shitty enough acc to get two zanshins on one trip to 100 tp and have both of those zanshin procs land for it to make a difference. And then you have polearm sam, 15 tp isn't going to drop you from a 5hit to a 4hit when you're already getting 20tp/hit and would need 25/hit to get a 4 hit.

GKT WS. Damage varies with TP. Ikishoten gives you more TP.
So yeah, you will end up doing MORE DMG if you have Ikishoten.
A very small, unoticeable difference unless the extra tp makes the diff in 100 to 200, ect.
 Cerberus.Azumii
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By Cerberus.Azumii 2010-05-13 15:58:42
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What do you guys think about the Zanshin Attack Rate (Group 1)?

Or just stick with:~

Meditate 5/5
Store TP 5/5
 Sylph.Tigerwoods
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By Sylph.Tigerwoods 2010-05-13 16:08:57
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Quote:
What do you guys think about the Zanshin Attack Rate (Group 1)?
Sucks
 Unicorn.Tarowyn
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By Unicorn.Tarowyn 2010-05-13 16:30:10
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Sylph.Tigerwoods said:
a 5 min shik would add more damage (To your group, not you as an individual) than Iki just by giving away overflow tp. Doesn't even have to be a full 100 you give them. need 1 more hit to ws and DA proc? Doing that once every 5 mins would add more dmg than iki.
Wheee, back. So about the whole shiki adding more dmg. How? lol. So you got a DA proc and you have extra TP, you fork over a grand total of 17 TP to some other DD once every 7 1/2 minutes (Because most people like to have at least 1 merit in bash) so you pretty much only have to have one useful iki proc over the course of 7 1/2 minutes to make the two equal (Assuming TP across different jobs has approximately equal value). I GUESS you get more dmg when you just sit around medding and shikiing it to other people but I personally don't like having to sit around for 20 minutes before every fight.
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 Unicorn.Tarowyn
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By Unicorn.Tarowyn 2010-05-13 16:36:09
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Sylph.Tigerwoods said:
Ok, so your excuse for not using pizza is availability? Oh you got me there! If you want to be cheap and use inferior food, then zanshin and iki are a good combo!
How is availability the issue? It's called I don't want to be carrying around 10 pizzas in my bag all the time and the dmg difference is neglible if not actually weighted towards meat.

You're starting to get into the realm of, why don't you just carry a satchel full of pizza for colis? If you want to be cheap and use inferior food, then just use miths/crab!
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 Bismarck.Dracondria
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By Bismarck.Dracondria 2010-05-13 16:36:39
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Shiki is also very useful to give non-sams or non-/sams TP in a place where you can't TP up before the fight, like Kirin.
 Cerberus.Azumii
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By Cerberus.Azumii 2010-05-13 16:39:04
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Sylph.Tigerwoods said:
Quote:
What do you guys think about the Zanshin Attack Rate (Group 1)?
Sucks

lol alright.
 Sylph.Tigerwoods
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By Sylph.Tigerwoods 2010-05-13 16:45:14
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Unicorn.Tarowyn said:
Sylph.Tigerwoods said:
Ok, so your excuse for not using pizza is availability? Oh you got me there! If you want to be cheap and use inferior food, then zanshin and iki are a good combo!
How is availability the issue? It's called I don't want to be carrying around 10 pizzas in my bag all the time and the dmg difference is neglible if not actually weighted towards meat.

You're starting to get into the realm of, why don't you just carry a satchel full of pizza for colis? If you want to be cheap and use inferior food, then just use miths/crab!
Colis? you were talking dark ixion, were you not? You die 10 times per DI?

And if you're using crab, your acc is still going to be capped on birds, so yea, same point as pizza
 Seraph.Rafik
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By Seraph.Rafik 2010-05-13 16:46:32
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Bismarck.Dracondria said:
Shiki is also very useful to give non-sams or non-/sams TP in a place where you can't TP up before the fight, like Kirin.

or ksnm/omega/ultima/einh

I hook the pld up with tp
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 Unicorn.Tarowyn
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By Unicorn.Tarowyn 2010-05-13 16:47:13
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We were talking about DI/Odin, and Odin at least will ATTEMPT to wipe out my food 9 times. Whether I'm in range or not varies.

And no, DI I probably average dying once or twice. Food usage is a lot more variable, some days I'll be fine, some days everytime I walk in range I'll get my teeth kicked in.

Edit: Same ACC but no atk
 Sylph.Tigerwoods
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By Sylph.Tigerwoods 2010-05-13 16:48:21
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Capped acc, you're benefitting from iki a maximum of 1.8% of the time, and no, that's not 1.8% increase, it's physically the amount of time you will benefit from iki. once you apply the times it does proc, the actual % increase in damage you get is going to be much lower than that.
 Unicorn.Tarowyn
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By Unicorn.Tarowyn 2010-05-13 16:49:42
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What do you mean apply the times it procs? If you zanshin, you iki, period.
 Fenrir.Nightfyre
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By Fenrir.Nightfyre 2010-05-13 16:52:33
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I'm getting 2.1% (0.05*0.45*0.95). I miss something?

EDIT: DA overwrites Zanshin. 0.05*0.45*0.95*0.93 (Pole + Brutal) = 1.99%, then work out how often it saves you a hit vs adding a small amount of WS damage, etc. If anything Tiger's being generous with his 1.71% figure.
 Sylph.Tigerwoods
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By Sylph.Tigerwoods 2010-05-13 16:53:20
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Unicorn.Tarowyn said:
What do you mean apply the times it procs? If you zanshin, you iki, period.
With a 6hit build, it takes 5 hits until you have enough tp for the ws.

hit hit hit hit hit.


If iki procs on hit 1-4, you will ws one hit faster (unless you DA somewhere else, but we'll leave that alone for now).

If iki procs on hit number 5, it took you the exact same number of attack rounds until you were able to WS since you would have been able to WS w/ or w/o iki on hit number 5.

Capped acc means you miss 5% of the time. Zanshin has a 45% proc rate.

.05 x .45 = .0225 = 2.25% proc rate on zanshin.

The iki tp will only make the difference 4/5 of the time.

2.25 x (4/5) = 1.8% chance of iki reducing your number of hits by 1 to gain 100 TP under capped acc.


Edit: Thanks for reminding me night, I didn't even apply the hit rate cap to iki.

(.05 x .45 x .95) (4/5) = 1.71% chance of iki doing anything for you
 Unicorn.Tarowyn
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By Unicorn.Tarowyn 2010-05-13 17:00:35
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I understand the 1.8%/1.71%, but your previous post made it sound like the actual effect is actually less than that because of iki not proccing somehow.

And I dunno, you're just missing the point. It's not about how much it does for you at capped acc. You don't realistically cap acc everywhere for various reasons and if you're not capping acc (while still keeping in the 78%ish range), you lose very little in the way of TP gain because of iki. That's the point of it having iki, not because of the fractional upgrade you get at capped acc.
 Sylph.Tigerwoods
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By Sylph.Tigerwoods 2010-05-13 17:03:10
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So, again, my point is. If your sam sucks, Iki may be nice. If your sam is good, you're looking at the increase of a venrer ring.
 Sylph.Tigerwoods
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By Sylph.Tigerwoods 2010-05-13 17:05:24
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And once you consider double attacks, it comes to less than 1.7 because let's say you need 5 hits to get 100 tp after ws'ing

hit miss/zanshin hit hit

this would get you tp 1 hit faster

hit miss/zanshin hit hit/da proc

Same number of rounds.

DA can *** an iki over, too, as well as iki proccing on the final hit to 100 tp.
 Unicorn.Tarowyn
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By Unicorn.Tarowyn 2010-05-13 17:05:46
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No, if you want to be able to use meat everywhere it's good. Not sucking means knowing how things will affect you and acting accordingly.
 Unicorn.Tarowyn
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By Unicorn.Tarowyn 2010-05-13 17:06:45
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I have calculations somewhere on here that already take all that stuff into account, I'm well aware of the issues with zanshin, lol.

Edit: And truthfully DA does the exact same thing to regular builds too, but people don't really account for it properly.
 Sylph.Tigerwoods
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By Sylph.Tigerwoods 2010-05-13 17:07:27
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Unicorn.Tarowyn said:
No, if you want to be able to use meat everywhere it's good. Not sucking means knowing how things will affect you and acting accordingly.
If you want to eat meat EVERYWHERE then you do fall under the category of suck. Meat isn't always the best, sorry to burst your bubble.
 Unicorn.Tarowyn
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By Unicorn.Tarowyn 2010-05-13 17:10:11
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*shrug*, fine then, just change it to being able to use meat MORE OFTEN, lol. I don't actually use meat everywhere for the record.
 Sylph.Tigerwoods
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By Sylph.Tigerwoods 2010-05-13 17:15:25
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Even w/ 85% hitrate, and iki saving you an average of 1 hit to 100 tp

.15 x .45 x (4/5) = 5.4% increase to ws frequency. ws is about 70% of sam's dmg.

5.4 x .7 = 3.78% increase.

Wearing ace's and usu feet for your meat build? Swap to turban and fuma w/ sushi, still keep capped acc and gain 2% haste.

2/33 = 6.06% increase

6.06 > 3.78

You can make arguments for lower acc than that, but anything under 85% is unacceptable to eat meat.
 Leviathan.Dubont
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By Leviathan.Dubont 2010-05-13 17:17:44
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The second that this game became one big math formula is the second it stopped being as fun..."my scythe does 0.0003 more dmg per second than your scythe so MINE is better" yea but I like MY scythe so you can shove YOUR scythe up YOUR ***.
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