LOL Wipe Vs Warder Of Courage ;)

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LOL Wipe vs Warder of Courage ;)
 Sylph.Shadowlina
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By Sylph.Shadowlina 2016-02-25 09:45:58
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Yo' Lina here.

Your idea that the 1 Hour abilities used by Warder of Courage cannot be locked is incorrect.
Almost all current world clears are dependent on locking it's one hours, of which the window to lock them are gimmicky, and not yet well understood.

You can Lock EVERY SINGLE ONE of Warder of Courages abilities. INCLUDING Benediction.

The gimmick to locking 1 Hours isn't properly fleshed out in detail, but it includes elemental damage, after the 1hour ability has been used. However, we have also locked One hours with Shield Bash, and Leaden Salute.

You can see the Wyverns locked here, which is the current strategy most Linkshells are using to get their clears.

This NM is NOT as luck based as you are claiming, and you can largely lock it from doing every single 1 hour (Although there is no need too).

It's just the mechanics of locking the One hours, through the white proc are not well understood.

You can also still take this NM down with 3 Benedictions, my first kill was 3 bene's, but some of my more recent kills contain 0/1 benedictions.
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 Asura.Sechs
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By Asura.Sechs 2016-02-25 09:50:58
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I think every ability or spell in game has an elemental affinity of some sort (aside some exceptions).
It probably has something to do with using actions (JAs, spells) of a certain element within a few seconds after WoC uses his SP.

The relation could be same element, or strong element against, for example.

It could be that this lock isn't 100% but every action that fulfills the "elemental requirements" has a certain % chance to produce a "lock", similar to how magic WSs have a % to reset discordant note on Neak, but they're never 100%.



I think it's something like that.
Knowing the details would make WoC a much less random and more enjoyable fight, but alas SE isn't releasing accurate info :(
I could say the same about the HELM NMs in reisenjima.
For many (all?) of those NMs we only know very vague details on their gimmicks.
Knowing the full extent of how things work would make those fights much more enjoyable and less frustrating, without SE having to nerf them.
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 Asura.Cyleena
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By Asura.Cyleena 2016-02-25 10:10:14
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Sylph.Shadowlina said: »
Yo' Lina here.

Your idea that the 1 Hour abilities used by Warder of Courage cannot be locked is incorrect.
Almost all current world clears are dependent on locking it's one hours, of which the window to lock them are gimmicky, and not yet well understood.

You can Lock EVERY SINGLE ONE of Warder of Courages abilities. INCLUDING Benediction.

The gimmick to locking 1 Hours isn't properly fleshed out in detail, but it includes elemental damage, after the 1hour ability has been used. However, we have also locked One hours with Shield Bash, and Leaden Salute.

You can see the Wyverns locked here, which is the current strategy most Linkshells are using to get their clears.

This NM is NOT as luck based as you are claiming, and you can largely lock it from doing every single 1 hour (Although there is no need too).

It's just the mechanics of locking the One hours, through the white proc are not well understood.

You can also still take this NM down with 3 Benedictions, my first kill was 3 bene's, but some of my more recent kills contain 0/1 benedictions.
Asura.Cyleena said: »
or is not known how to be done

Like I said it might not be known how its done. Yeah you have an idea, and can occasionally hit a lucky white proc but is there anyone out there that can lock it every time, and knows the gimmick? Even with elemental magic after it uses an ability the amount of times it white procs is low. Most linkshells I know do not lock it much if any, they zerg it. Unless you can lock it 100% of the time with benediction or soul voice it really IS a luck based very random mob. Also, how many people you do AV v2 with depends on if you can kill it with 3 benedictions. We normally do it with 15-16+ people so yeah, all that hp and 3 benedictions would be extremely hard to kill in the limited amount of time. If you doing it with 6-7 people it is a different story and you probably could do it with multiple benediction.
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By Fenrir.Ramzus 2016-02-25 10:53:47
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Sylph.Shadowlina said: »
Almost all current world clears are dependent on locking it's one hours, of which the window to lock them are gimmicky, and not yet well understood.

I don't have much to add to this thread, but I think this statement is fairly false... most groups I know (outside of the weirdass JP pickups on my server that spam t1 spells or something) just ignore every single mechanic about the fight and kill it fast enough before it can use too many 2 hours. if you can get your kill time to sub 5 minutes it realllllllllly increases the chances of winning the fight without having to rely on locking two hours.
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By Asura.Cyleena 2016-02-25 10:56:56
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Fenrir.Ramzus said: »
Sylph.Shadowlina said: »
Almost all current world clears are dependent on locking it's one hours, of which the window to lock them are gimmicky, and not yet well understood.

I don't have much to add to this thread, but I think this statement is fairly false... most groups I know (outside of the weirdass JP pickups on my server that spam t1 spells or something) just ignore every single mechanic about the fight and kill it fast enough before it can use too many 2 hours. if you can get your kill time to sub 5 minutes it realllllllllly increases the chances of winning the fight without having to rely on locking two hours.

Yeah I agree. Groups I know that do these fights focus on zerging more then trying to lock something that may or may not lock out. If you want to get the win and have the man power just take it down asap to increase chances of getting the win.
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By Sylph.Shadowlina 2016-02-25 11:10:49
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There's a very clear distinction in the two phases of the Fight, dependent on your party.
Some people will and do take the first phase a lot slower, taking their time to lock out things that could be annoying, whilst also maintaining a simple BLM Death rotation, whilst other members keep an eye out to lock out certain moves if they can. (My server standerds appear to be 4 BLMs, but sometimes 2), Everyone else is almost expected to free nuke through, maintain debuffs, Cover cures if needs be.

A Suprising amount of people do not zerg first phase at all. Like At All at All, they just go at a leisurely pace.

It's only 2nd Phase (Bracelets), where people begin to step up their game, begin hard core rotations, 2 hours, whatever. OFC, Some people like to play the gamble of just outright zerg, but most Linkshells do not have the conversation of even attempting that, as it's risky, and a dragons, or even bene can very easily end that and lead to 1 hours wasted.
Some Groups just do the same thing the whole fight, and take 12 minutes to kill start to finish, Rotating Deaths, maybe using a Tabula Rosa to speed it up. but that doesn't mean that there certainly isnt (Cause i can tell you there almost always is) the effort to Lock 1 hours.

I've been in clear groups that haven't even bothered to do a MB'd Klaustra to do the extra Tick Damage in-between Death rotation.

There is so much that can be manipulated in this fight by simply having good communication it's unreal. and it's totally unfair to say that it isn't possible to manipulate your luck.
The only way to make this fight easier, is to grind it out, and after each attempt, seriously ask, what seriously went wrong.
That's how WoC has been taken down, and how the T4s have been taken down. By Clear cut communication.

Just to clarify, almost every group i've been to, static group, has had an entirely different set up.
I mean heck, i've seen almost 3 different variants just on setting up tanks.
For the curious:
1) Pup tank
2) PLD/WAR + PLD/RDM
3) Solo PLD/BLU.

This End-game content is no way something you can just show up with any random *** job combination, and just expect to win. When i mean you HAVE to grind, you HAVE to grind. I think reading and watching any video on Schah from T4 Reisen can easily showcase my point. And there is just No way 1 set way to do ANY of this content, like your "Zerg it" WoC strategy someone else was saying.
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 Asura.Cyleena
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By Asura.Cyleena 2016-02-25 11:28:53
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Sylph.Shadowlina said: »
There's a very clear distinction in the two phases of the Fight, dependent on your party.
Some people will and do take the first phase a lot slower, taking their time to lock out things that could be annoying, whilst also maintaining a simple BLM Death rotation, whilst other members keep an eye out to lock out certain moves if they can. (My server standerds appear to be 4 BLMs, but sometimes 2), Everyone else is almost expected to free nuke through, maintain debuffs, Cover cures if needs be.

A Suprising amount of people do not zerg first phase at all. Like At All at All, they just go at a leisurely pace.

It's only 2nd Phase (Bracelets), where people begin to step up their game, begin hard core rotations, 2 hours, whatever. OFC, Some people like to play the gamble of just outright zerg, but most Linkshells do not have the conversation of even attempting that, as it's risky, and a dragons, or even bene can very easily end that and lead to 1 hours wasted.
Some Groups just do the same thing the whole fight, and take 12 minutes to kill start to finish, Rotating Deaths, maybe using a Tabula Rosa to speed it up. but that doesn't mean that there certainly isnt (Cause i can tell you there almost always is) the effort to Lock 1 hours.

I've been in clear groups that haven't even bothered to do a MB'd Klaustra to do the extra Tick Damage in-between Death rotation.

There is so much that can be manipulated in this fight by simply having good communication it's unreal. and it's totally unfair to say that it isn't possible to manipulate your luck.
The only way to make this fight easier, is to grind it out, and after each attempt, seriously ask, what seriously went wrong.
That's how WoC has been taken down, and how the T4s have been taken down. By Clear cut communication.

Just to clarify, almost every group i've been to, static group, has had an entirely different set up.
I mean heck, i've seen almost 3 different variants just on setting up tanks.
For the curious:
1) Pup tank
2) PLD/WAR + PLD/RDM
3) Solo PLD/BLU.

This End-game content is no way something you can just show up with any random *** job combination, and just expect to win. When i mean you HAVE to grind, you HAVE to grind. I think reading and watching any video on Schah from T4 Reisen can easily showcase my point. And there is just No way 1 set way to do ANY of this content, like your "Zerg it" WoC strategy someone else was saying.

There is not a "set way" to do any of the NM. What works for one group might not work for another, etc. You have to go by what options you have for your group. I never said your way was wrong, just saying that locking out it is not 100%, and like I said in my original post they need to keep trying. With larger groups like mine we have to adjust to what we have available for the content. What works for a 6 man group probably will not work for a 16 man group as well. Our fights are longer then a 6 man group, and we normally take longer on AV v2 because of so many people with us making the hp higher on it. While taking it down our geo do nuke low tier ele on the chance it will proc white but it is rare that it does, so we do not solely depend on procing white but rather on taking it down as soon as we can.

We take advantage of the first 3 min of the fight to knock as much hp as we can but we save 2 hrs, like bolster until about 50% then use those. We normally have np killing AV v2 unless it starts spamming benediction or soul voice. A lot also depends on how early in the fight it uses benediction. We have seen it use it at about 70% then not use it again. We have seen it use it at that percentage then spam it as fight goes on.

The NM is very random and yes if you want to spend the time figuring out how to lock abilities then go for it. Smaller groups probably have a easier time doing that but when you are in a larger group (15-16+ people) with way more hp and you want the win focusing on knocking down hp works better then looking for ways to proc white. Anyway, everyone does things differently, and you just have to find out what works for your group.
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By Asura.Loire 2016-02-25 12:12:47
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Fenrir.Ramzus said: »
Sylph.Shadowlina said: »
Almost all current world clears are dependent on locking it's one hours, of which the window to lock them are gimmicky, and not yet well understood.

I don't have much to add to this thread, but I think this statement is fairly false... most groups I know (outside of the weirdass JP pickups on my server that spam t1 spells or something) just ignore every single mechanic about the fight and kill it fast enough before it can use too many 2 hours. if you can get your kill time to sub 5 minutes it realllllllllly increases the chances of winning the fight without having to rely on locking two hours.
Not once have we put any focus on locking any of its one hours. Even during our exploratory runs we gave up on that soon into devolping strats for it. I put it in the same category of escha seiryu's hate mechanic.
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By Caitsith.Mahayaya 2016-02-25 12:28:59
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Post in here, Spicy so you can have the whole front page.
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By Caitsith.Mahayaya 2016-02-25 13:00:28
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Can PUP gain any enmity on WoC now with the changes to flashbulb and voke? We first tried when it was first released with like 4 PUPs and WoC went around just murdering everyone and ignoring the puppets.
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By Quetzalcoatl.Trulusia 2016-02-25 13:17:36
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Caitsith.Mahayaya said: »
Can PUP gain any enmity on WoC now with the changes to flashbulb and voke? We first tried when it was first released with like 4 PUPs and WoC went around just murdering everyone and ignoring the puppets.

I tested this last night. The answer is no. There is absolutely no way to tank this ***on PUP. Unless there is some kinda weird mechanic I'm unaware of.

So basically what seems to happen is that a pet can generate enmity on the target, and then it immediately drops to 1. Flash, Provoke, Invincible and enmity swapping with /blu(After I know for a fact I have the most hate[B/C WoC is chasing me]) all proved worthless.

While it is probably not a productive way of dealing with this particular NM, we want to kill it with pet jobs. I suppose we need to focus on procing to remove Benediction/Soul Voice BEFORE we get him to 50%, then we can easily finish off the rest of him. I didn't realize that procing white after a 2hr removes it from his arsenal, honestly. I just thought it stopped him from using the next move in the rotation. Does this mean that if you proc and remove chainspell/invincible, it stops him from being able to use the subsequent 2hrs he does in rotation after bracelets? Benediction before bracelets is no big deal, but if comes after his DT just slows the fight to a crawl. I was actually toying with the idea of bringing WAR for Tomahawk >.>
 
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 Fenrir.Snaps
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By Fenrir.Snaps 2016-02-25 14:45:24
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The locking mechanic has been known for a while but it is not well understood. Unless this changes, it is still a luck based fight regardless of what method you choose due to the 30 minute time restriction. Most groups zerg because zerging is fairly reliable if you are able to kill it quickly. If you fail, you reset your 1 hours and try again. You can get in 2~3 zergs for every one drawn out locking fight, which you may also lose. I think it would be great if we can better understand the locking mechanism as it is kind of annoying having to constantly reset SPs only to die some of the time. The efficiency of zerging is still the best but was greatly hindered by the Super Revitalizer adjustment.
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By Ruaumoko 2016-03-27 23:36:17
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Sylph.Shadowlina said: »
Yo' Lina here.

Your idea that the 1 Hour abilities used by Warder of Courage cannot be locked is incorrect.
Almost all current world clears are dependent on locking it's one hours, of which the window to lock them are gimmicky, and not yet well understood.

You can Lock EVERY SINGLE ONE of Warder of Courages abilities. INCLUDING Benediction.

The gimmick to locking 1 Hours isn't properly fleshed out in detail, but it includes elemental damage, after the 1hour ability has been used. However, we have also locked One hours with Shield Bash, and Leaden Salute.

You can see the Wyverns locked here, which is the current strategy most Linkshells are using to get their clears.

This NM is NOT as luck based as you are claiming, and you can largely lock it from doing every single 1 hour (Although there is no need too).

It's just the mechanics of locking the One hours, through the white proc are not well understood.

You can also still take this NM down with 3 Benedictions, my first kill was 3 bene's, but some of my more recent kills contain 0/1 benedictions.
Going to agree with this. There are two ways you can approach this fight and I'm beginning to think that taking your time on the first form is the best way to do it. Locking down Invincible, Call Wyvern and Soul Voice before the second form eliminates a lot of the randomness Courage has.

Here's an example of what can sadly happen if you do not lock Invincible, relevant part of the video is at 7:30.
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 Asura.Ramsy
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By Asura.Ramsy 2016-12-03 09:07:53
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Wondering if anyone had anymore info to add about locking 1hrs? Did our first couple of runs last night and can get him down to about 35% so we're looking to try a few runs of trying to lock 1hrs.
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By Ruaumoko 2016-12-03 10:19:26
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Nukes and Weapon Skills used during 1-hour animations have a chance to !! and lock said 1-hour.
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 Shiva.Eightball
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By Shiva.Eightball 2016-12-03 10:43:45
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my LS brings 2 parties usually with enough rdm blm sch geo to have 1 person assigned to nuke 1 element T5 asap when 1hour animation goes and have been fairly successful with this.
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By Shiva.Arislan 2016-12-03 16:40:21
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Shiva.Eightball said: »
my LS brings 2 parties usually with enough rdm blm sch geo to have 1 person assigned to nuke 1 element T5 asap when 1hour animation goes and have been fairly successful with this.

Doesn't even have to be T5... T1-3 work as well and are quicker. Stuff like flash, holy, bio, etc will work, too.

We discovered that WOC's 1hours don't seem to be time-triggered... they seem to be related to damage taken, so your tank can actually hold him safely. Concentrating damage in large coordinated volleys (like Rayke/Gambit > Distortion > Leaden Salute > All BLMs bursting Comet/Death w/ manawell) every 3-4 minutes is actually better than chipping away constantly w/ a single-death rotation, since you'll end up dealing w/ less 1hours.
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By Shiva.Eightball 2016-12-03 16:57:31
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we tried lower teir spells but proc rate seemed to me much worse, with T5s we get proc nearly every 1 hour now.
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By Asura.Syto 2016-12-03 18:16:10
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We had our Idris GEO just spam T1 and BLMs spam in between deaths pre-bracelet phase. Got critical (bene/charm/mijin) 1-hour procs every fight. It's easy. However you can get kills very easily now with 6-man BLM WoC even without proc. It should die within 7 minutes if you are very effective with death volleys. A few of my members do it with another group often selling Telos Earrings.. You have to be very fast though especially when bracelets are out.
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By Leviathan.Brotherhood 2016-12-03 18:40:17
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Melee Vs Nuke Strat
Which is suggested over the other?
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By Lakshmi.Byrth 2016-12-03 19:14:41
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Melee is a simpler strat for everything you can hit.
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By Shiva.Eightball 2016-12-04 17:12:36
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Asura.Ramsy said: »
Wondering if anyone had anymore info to add about locking 1hrs? Did our first couple of runs last night and can get him down to about 35% so we're looking to try a few runs of trying to lock 1hrs.

just curious, what setup you running with?
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By Asura.Ramsy 2016-12-04 17:50:43
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Shiva.Eightball said: »
Asura.Ramsy said: »
Wondering if anyone had anymore info to add about locking 1hrs? Did our first couple of runs last night and can get him down to about 35% so we're looking to try a few runs of trying to lock 1hrs.

just curious, what setup you running with?
been doing Run,whm,sch,cor,blmx4,geox2.
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By Shiva.Eightball 2016-12-05 08:42:14
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sounds pretty solid, just need to get triggers set I guess. you are bringing cor for mega darkness right?
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By Ricon 2016-12-05 14:44:08
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Asura.Syto said: »
A few of my members do it with another group often selling Telos Earrings.. You have to be very fast though especially when bracelets are out.

What kind of setup do they use for 6 man, I really did think it wasn't too impossible but to hear that it's semi common gives me a little more hope.
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By Asura.Avallon 2016-12-05 15:09:13
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I don't mean to sound pretentious, but Courage with 6 people is far from impossible - we do it regularly. In fact, we don't even use WHM's anymore. It puts the need for members to wear additional hats on for the run(s), but it works well for our strategy.
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By Odin.Llewelyn 2016-12-05 15:15:22
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First time we did a no WHM AV he was like 'lul, 8 Explosive Impulses in 20 secs with unresisted Stun' and killed everyone except the tank. Been fine since then, but it was pretty funny.

If you're worried about healing in a WHM-less melee setup, you could just throw a BLU in each party for White Wind. Should heal for like 1200+ or so.
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By Asura.Ramsy 2016-12-06 08:25:11
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Asura.Avallon said: »
I don't mean to sound pretentious, but Courage with 6 people is far from impossible - we do it regularly. In fact, we don't even use WHM's anymore. It puts the need for members to wear additional hats on for the run(s), but it works well for our strategy.
Mind sharing your strategy then lol? I'm guessing you guys do run sch geo blm x3?