Leviathan.Kincard said:
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If I'm putting words in your mouth they're only slightly different than a stance you've made clear on multiple occasions. You've gone on record many, many times saying that you in some like the tedium because that's part of the design in one way or another.
I don't blindly support every design in FFXI, hell I don't even really play FFXI anymore, mostly because I don't support their gear design direction after SoA(except I don't put words in others mouth if they still enjoying current SoA). I just don't see there's that much "wrong" in tons of grind with JP. From what I've seen, it seems to be optional, at least with the intend to be optional, something for players to do while not doing event.
There are certain stance I've made because there are directions I think is right, but not because I want the game to be "boring", but because I look at the entire game from another POV. Grinding is boring, I agree. But if I look at JP system from "just a nice optional bonus to keep players busy for months" POV, then being "boring" no longer matter that much, because there are more important matters. I don't think I've ever defend for a design decision because I think it's "epic", most of the time I defend for a design decision from long term goal/MMO sustainability and virtual community building POV. If a design can meet the above criteria AND fun, by all means I'll support it. The problem is design like that doesn't exist.
There are plenty of grind in FFXI I choose not to do if I don't like them. I don't grind for afterglow, I don't grind useful jobs, I don't grind many important gears, They're all optional, just something I don't enjoy doing. But I do support designs like afterglow, so players enjoy grinding and wasting their time have something to do.
My preference about the game does not matter, the design goal matters. If I don't like certain aspect of the game but still like the whole game enough to keep playing, I just don't do what I don't like.
If I'm going to fight against every design because certain player dislike them, then it will never end, since no game can please everyone. Again, if you want to convince me grind is terrible and a lazy solution in MMO game design, come up with a way to meet the design goal of keeping players busy and having social hierarchy in game without relying on grind.
Leviathan.Kincard said:
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The problem isn't that grind exists, obviously there's going to be grind, it doesn't even need the MMO part of the genre to have that be a staple. It's that sticking in grinding local wildlife is a lazy way to "fix" that problem and you should know this given that you've played many MMOs. Having it be at a snail's pace even moreso, that's just dimestore MMO ***that should stay there, especially because a better way of doing it was right there, which I pointed out; just make it a special point system doled out by completing lv. 99 battlefields/events around the game.
AFAIK, there are several ways to keep players around in MMO:
1. Grind.
2. Meaningful PVP with depths
3. Sandbox
4. Let players beat content like single player game and produce content as fast as players beating single player games.
In the case of FFXI, 2, 3, 4 is out. Maybe I'm missing something, feel free to point out a better way to keep players around, I'll post on official forum for you if you have better ideas.
No, "just make it a special point system doled out by completing lv. 99 battlefields/events around the game" doesn't work. Players either gonna beat battlefields/events like single player game and finish JP in one sitting, or the dev have to force players to do same battlefields for 20 times until everything's done.
IMO, being forced to do same damn battle field for 20 times is just as boring.
Also, by your logic, if doing same battle field for 20 times isn't boring, you may as well suggest SE to hand out EXP by doing battle field and keep the same design. The difference is players at least get to choose how to obtain the points.
Leviathan.Kincard said:
»Basically, XIV's system gets ***because it's putting a limit on stuff people want to do more of. The current JP system is getting ***because it's way too much of something people don't want to do a lot of
It's way too much of something people don't want to do a lot of, because the there are limited ways to get them efficiently, and it's getting old. The length of the grind isn't the issue, the method is. Then the right way to fix it is to find the right method, not to remove grind completely.
Leviathan.Kincard said:
»I don't know if I'm the weird one, but I don't think getting 1-2 days of play a week out of a game for $15 a month is in any way a bad deal. I mean, I've played games like Braid that cost about that much and play for like 2 hours the first time through and I think they're worth the money.
Actually, since we're talking about XIV anyway- did you grind your Chocobo to Rank 10 in that game?
It depend on whether I want the content or not. Braid is worth the money because it's one of a kind, you can't play it anywhere else, you only have to pay once and you can keep replaying it as many times as you like. So yes, I'm willing to pay $15 for a 2hr single player game if I think the experience of that 2hr is worth it. It's not like I have to pay $15 every month for 2hr playtime a month.
In ARR I have to pay EVERY MONTH if I want to join a coil static or something like that, but really only get to play nothing but coil, IMO that's a pretty cheap way to steal my sub money.
And no, I don't grind my chocobo to rank 10 in ARR, cuz I'm not interested in it, like how I'm not interested in grinding afterglow in XI. But I support them, because someone else may want to grind them.